C4C 45 | Conversation with Minoru Ohkusa: The Journey of Socially Withdrawn Youth Toward True Self-Acceptance

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Adam Peter Lang [00:00:00] Hello listeners, I'm your host, Dr. Adam Peter -Lang from University College London. Sitting here in West London today, welcoming you to today's episode where we're going to look closely at one of the most pressing, yet often invisible issues of modern society. And we're going to be looking at that over a period of the next few sessions in this Conversations4Citizenship podcast.

[00:00:29] We're looking at socially withdrawn young people, commonly known in Japan and other parts of the world as hikikomori, and the growing acronym NEETS, which is used in the West, which is a very negative one actually, not in education, employment and training, which is a pretty ugly way of describing a large percentage of young people. And today we're incredibly delighted to be joined by Minoru Okusa.

[00:01:02] And for nearly 20 years, Minoru has dedicated his life to working in civil society organizations, standing with and closely by the sides of isolated and deeply troubled young people, currently serving as the international cooperation team leader at the social cooperative, NAVIDO , N -A -V -I -D -O. And I think we'll hear more about that later. He's been a tireless advocate for protecting and looking after children from the challenges of our education systems globally and dysfunctional family dynamics. As I say, this is a key theme.

[00:01:46] And actually, as I sit here in London, it's a big debate going on with our new UK government about what our education system should be doing for young people, because there are over 1 million young people between 16 and 24 that fall into this category. But let's get on with this and look more and learn more from Minoru. So, Minoru, welcome to Conversations for Citizenship.

Minoru Ohkusa [00:02:15] Hi, I am Minoru Ohkusa. I'm very glad to be with you all. I'm very, thank you very much for inviting me to here.

Adam- Great. Well, that's a good start.

[00:02:27] We're hearing you loud and clear. Now, Minoru, if you need to go into Korean, don't worry about that one little bit because Stella can translate. And so, our listeners at Conversations4Citizenship and indeed us as hosts, we're always very interested in our contributors' backgrounds, stories, and narratives. And in particular, we're going to be with you.

[00:02:51] Could you share with us initially what sort of sparked your personal interest in this whole issue of socially withdrawn young people? And what has kept you so deeply committed to this over all these years?

Minoru- Okay. I came into this work almost by accident.

[00:03:13] I spoke Korean and back in 2012, I got a chance to help set up the Korean branch of K2 International Group, a Japanese social enterprise supporting Hikikomori. The capital is Yokohama, is my hometown. So, I joined them and started working there to help people. At the time, I had no idea this would become my life's work.

[00:03:46] But once I started living with those young people, talking with them and spending a lot of time together, I didn't feel that they were very different from me. They thought too much, worried about how other people saw them, struggled with society's expectations, and got hurt easily. I saw a lot of myself in them. At the time in Korea, there were surprisingly few people seriously working on this issue, almost nothing.

[00:04:24] For about the first five years, almost no new professionals entered the field. So, I slowly started thinking, if someone must do this work and almost nobody else is doing it, maybe this is my work. I was also teaching Japanese at the university at the time, but many people could do the job. So, after three years, I stopped and decided to teach Japanese to focus fully on Hikikomori support.

[00:04:58] And also, there is also one experience from my university days and that deeply influenced me. My favorite professor, Professor Kuwayama, once talked about the idea of minority problem. He said that you may think that minority has the problem, but often the real problem is the majority, a majority that pushes them to the margins without even realizing it. So, minority problem is really a majority problem.

[00:05:33] That idea stayed with me. I decided I wanted to stand on the side of people who

are pushed to the margins. And well, my name is Minoru, so I stand for minorities, after all.

Adam- Brilliant.

[00:05:50] Well, you've touched upon what I was going to ask next, which is in your extensive work, field work, but also your research. Are there any influences, writers, philosophers, or you mentioned a professor just then, that have influenced your perspective and your values on this whole issue?

Minoru [00:06:18] It's hard to choose just one person. What really changed my thinking was seeing the same patterns again and again in many different people. From their side, outside, they may look like they are doing nothing, but when I really listen to them, many are actually very perfectionistic and responsible. They've spent years trying to be good enough.

[00:06:56] They think I mustn't disappoint my parents. I mustn't cause problems or trouble. I have to go to school. I have to work.

[00:07:08] Even though they, when I pushed them, they often said, no, no, no, no, I'm not good. I cannot do this. I cannot do this. I cannot do this.

[00:07:20] So I started thinking that the idea, they cannot move because they are, I started thinking that the idea, they can move because they are lazy, maybe completely backwards.

In many cases, they stopped because they spent too long time doing everything very hard, they thought they had to do it. So, when I talk, when we talk more deeply, I often find strong unconscious beliefs, like if I fail, I have no value.

[00:08:02] I mustn't show weakness or I mustn't make mistakes. These beliefs were slowly formed through family, school, and society. This changed my idea or support. Sometimes what people need isn't another skill.

[00:08:23] So they need to fail and still keep the relationship. They need to fail. And they need to show an imperfect side of themselves and still not be abandoned. They need to feel that even when I'm not achieving anything, I still have value.

[00:08:47] So now I'm less interested in making people more capable. I'm more interested in helping them feel that they can live and have value when they cannot do anything.

Adam- And the work that you've done, which we're going to talk about in a minute, is that specifically initially in Japan or is it in Korea or is it in other jurisdictions?

Minoru- I worked in Korea for 13 years helping Hikikomoris.

[00:09:22] And I sometimes go to Japan and meet Japanese Hikikomoris. And I have done the lectures and the seminars in Japan for how to meet and help Hikikomoris because my company is the Japanese company. And actually, Japan has the deep and long history of helping Hikikomori people.

[00:09:54] So mainly I had the activities in Korea, but I learned a lot from Japanese Hikikomori helping people. And people ask a lot about what is the difference between Japanese Hikikomori and Korean Hikikomori. I think fundamentally the core is the same.

[00:10:27] So I couldn't find the big difference between the two countries, Hikikomoris, but the culture is different, slightly different. It's a bit similar, but slightly different. So, I can see the surface of the Hikikomori like Korean Hikikomori speaks more than Japanese and Japanese Hikikomoris are quieter. But I think it is generally, Japanese people are generally quiet.

[00:11:07] So I think it is not the difference between Hikikomoris.

Adam- Thank you. Thank you for explaining that because that leads me into my next question, which is over your time and your long career, your approach has possibly evolved.

I don't know, but how do you identify first of all, and then engage with the young people that you've worked with and try and work with and support?

Minoru- [00:11:35] First started, I was mainly doing resistance, residence support. When I first started, I was mainly doing residential support. So, living together with the Hikikomori people, I live with young people and help them build a daily routine, make relationships and slowly reconnect with society.

[00:12:03] But at the time, our main solution was basically coming to our residence show program, live together in our share house, but if someone didn't want to join or couldn't join, I had nothing to do. I had almost nothing else to offer. So that was very frustrating. So maybe I think the 90% I met at the time, I couldn't anything to them.

[00:12:43] So that was very frustrating. So, I kept thinking there must be another way. I started studying psychology, coaching neuroscience, quantum physics, and other fields. And I kept asking myself, why do people become Hikikomori?

[00:13:07] What kind of support really works? What do they need if we want to deal with the deeper problem? At first, I was also asking, how can I make them move?

[00:13:25] Usually most of the Hikikomori helpers think, how can I make them move? But I tried to encourage them and persuade them, but slowly I realized that I was asking the wrong question. The better question was, what is stopping them from moving? A big turning point came in 2021, when I became responsible for the Hikikomori support project for the Seoul metropolitan government.

[00:13:59] From then on, I started coaching not only Hikikomori individuals, but also their parents, their families. I began to see that even if the young person changes, they can easily be pulled back into the old patterns if the family dynamic doesn't change. So, these days I tell parents to leave their children alone to their own devices and not do anything to try them to change.

[00:14:35] So I look not only at the young person's unconscious belief, but also the parents' unconsciousness. So, at NAVIDO our goal isn't to make someone normal again. We want both the young people and the parents to notice the fears and compulsive values inside themselves, become a little free from them and start living their own lives. Our NANIDO has two meanings.

[00:15:15] In Korean, Navido, it sounds like just leaving me alone. Navido. So just leave me alone. Actually, these are the words many Hikikomori people say.

[00:15:31] Please leave me alone. But it also has the idea of navigation, navigation, of finding your own direction. So, one of the first things that we tell the parents is to please leave your children alone. That doesn't mean ignoring them.

[00:15:51] It means stopping unhealthy interference, letting go of control. So, noticing your own emotions and learning to accept yourself as you are. So, when parents start accepting themselves, the whole family relationship can change. And then sometimes the Hikikomori sons and daughters' starts moving again naturally after the parents' unconsciousness changes.

[00:16:27] So it may sound hard to believe, but I've really seen this happen.

Adam- Brilliant. No, that's very, very interesting, that parental dynamic, which is often forgotten about. I'm going on now to question four, and I'm going to ask this about you personally.

[00:16:44] How do you, working in this field, which is emotionally challenging for you, I'm sure, how do you keep going? How do you keep consistently standing on the side of these vulnerable young people and against a system? And sometimes you've even mentioned hierarchical family structures that are imposing them. What motivates you?

[00:17:10] How do you keep going?

Minoru- Yes. People often ask me, isn't it painful to listen to many difficult stories? But actually, I don't feel such a heavy emotional burden.

[00:17:29] One reason is that I'm not trying to change them. I try not to divide us into me, normal professional, and them, people with problems. I don't divide. When I look at them, I also see myself.

[00:17:50] Oh, it's the same. Oh, they are me. So, I have fear, shame, and need to be accepted, too. I feel it, too.

[00:18:03] So I don't feel there is such a big boundary between us. For me, my job is not to fix them. So, my job is accepting them as they are, helping them accept themselves as they are, and empowering them to feel I have value so they can live as themselves. This is very simple but very difficult.

[00:18:32] It's not my job to judge them, to try them, to try to change them. And the longer I work with them, the more I see problems on the side of the system. So, we are judged at school, as we are judged at school, at work, by our income, and by our social status. Everywhere, we are judged.

[00:19:03] Little by little, we start believing that our value comes from what we can do.

Especially in Korea and in Japan, in many other modern societies, schools can become almost like factories that rank people as if they were products and send them into the battlefield of society. So, you mentioned the egg and the wall. Haruki Murakami once used the image of the wall and eggs in his speech.

[00:19:40] When a huge system and one human being collide, I want to stand on the side of the egg. Not because the egg is weak, but because one person's pain can easily disappear if nobody listens to it. I also think this is one reason. You know BTS, the very famous Korean artist and idol?

[00:20:09] BTS has received so much support from all over the world. So, they are very, very popular among young people all over the world. They have continued to stand beside young people struggling with loneliness and self-hatred.

[00:20:31] They have kept saying, love yourself and your voice matters. So, the fact that young people all over the world, everywhere, needed that message shows how many people feel that they are not valuable just as they are. So that gives me energy to keep working. I want to help people reconnect with themselves, and I want them to know how there are adults in society who are on their side.

Adam- [00:21:12] That's a very profound answer, especially when you use that phrase, not to fix them. Across the world, I think governments and educators sometimes think in those terms. And that's why we started by saying NEETs is a very negative concept and term for people. But anyway, question five now is about. Is there anything more you want to say about your work or what you found out about parental engagement and family counselling that you can enlighten us on?

Minoru- [00:21:53] I think we all need both maternal and paternal qualities, not only in a family, but inside ourselves too. I'm not talking about fixed gender roles; what I call the paternal side is roles, responsibility, order, goals, and boundaries. The maternal side is an acceptable acceptance, empathy, safety, connection, and the feelings that you have value just because you exist.

[00:22:32] So in modern society, I think the paternal side has become too strong. So, when the father doesn't take the paternal role or when there is no father, the mother often feels she has to take on that role, the father role herself, and it may become focused on it. So many mothers wants to control everything. And there may be very little space left for acceptance.

[00:23:11] So of course, saying, go to school, work hard, get a job, become independent, isn't always wrong, it's right. But when it goes too far, people can start to feel that moment. They can no longer do those things, or they've lost their value as a person. They also need another message.

[00:23:39] Even like this, you're still okay. I often think about this through the Eastern idea of yin and yang, which means positive and negative. So, we cannot live only in yang, the positive side. Or if we only value success, strength, and growth, we become unable to accept failure, sadness, weakness, sad days, and times when we cannot move forward.

[00:24:16] When parents keep thinking, I have to make my child better. They often try to get rid of the ties on the negative side. They want to control and get rid of the negative side. But the negative is also part of who they are.

[00:24:38] It is half of me. So, no one is without a negative side. So, if parents keep rejecting their children's negative side, the children could keep receiving the message that half of who they are is being rejected. Half of me is rejected.

[00:25:01] So if parents keep chasing only the positive side of their life, they may be able to live that way themselves, but the child may eventually collapse because they cannot accept the negative inside themselves. Parents, yeah. Parents also need to show that they're not perfect. They need to make mistakes, admit weaknesses, and sometimes do something a little bad.

[00:25:37] By bad, I don't mean hurting someone. I mean stepping outside the need to always to be correct and responsible. So maybe they take a nap or do nothing. Maybe they spend money or idle, or they once thought it was a waste.

[00:26:01] Many parents themselves believe that if I'm not useful, I have no value. So, when their child struggles, they think I failed as a parent. That's why we first accept parents as they are too. When parents can accept their own weaknesses and imperfect sides, they become more able to accept their side in their children.

[00:26:34] So for me, real changes in the family often begin.

Adam- Thank you very much. Well, that's been very illuminating so far and very interesting too. Maybe we can shift gear a little bit now and take this into a sort of wider global dynamic or perspective.

[00:26:56] Hikikomori was once viewed as a sort of Japanese cultural bound syndrome problem, if that's the right word, which denotes a specific type of dependency and dependent behavior. However, as recent studies have shown, including your work, we're now seeing similar patterns of social withdrawal in many places, South Korea, as well as in Western countries. So, have you got an interpretation of this global spread of the phenomenon?

[00:27:26] Oh, I feel very uncomfortable with the idea that Hikikomori people are simply too dependent on their parents or that they were spoiled too much. In my experience, I always see the opposite. Many Hikikomori people grow up with parents who were too strict, too busy, or emotionally unpredictable. They couldn't safely depend on their parents when they were children.

[00:27:59] And I think healthy dependence is very important. A child needs to be able to say, "I'm scared, when they're scared, and cry when they're sad. They need to make mistakes and still be accepted. Or they need to feel, even when I achieve nothing, I'm still loved.

[00:28:26] But for me, that unconditional acceptance or unconditional love is a very important thing. We need it. But when children grew up surrounded by meritocracy, a constant comparison, and the idea that effort is everything, they slowly learn to put what I have to do before what I want or what I feel. Parents usually don't mean to hurt them.

[00:29:02] They may think they're encouraging the child, but if nobody really responds to the child's sadness, fear, frustrations, or exhaustion, the child may never learn how to accept those feelings inside themselves. And if you can connect with your own feelings, it becomes hard to connect with yourself and with other people. So, what many of them need is not more training. They need chances to fail.

[00:29:45] They need to fail and discover what they're still loved and accepted. They may still be developing in terms of skills and abilities, but when it comes to being themselves, they are already complete. And I think the fact that similar problems are appearing in many countries tells us something important. So many societies are becoming more competitive, more focused on achievement, and more obsessed with evaluating people.

[00:30:22] So I don't think hikikomori is simply a problem of Japanese culture or a Korean one. I think it's a visible symptom of a much wider problem in modern society, and maybe even warning all of us.

Adam- Yes. Well, that leads us very well to the next question about the economic side of things.

[00:30:48] Recent research suggests that there have been structural shifts, as you just mentioned there. The labor market, technological changes, we're all worried at the moment and concerned about AI and its developments. Are there shrinking job opportunities? Is this particularly disproportionately affecting young people in the workforce?

[00:31:12] So how directly do you think these kinds of economic factors are contributing to these phenomena and the rise of NEET and socially withdrawn young people?

Minoru- I think economic factors are extremely important. I think, I sometimes think the hikikomori issue is a problem of money, issue of money. If we go really deep, capitalism and meritocracy are major parts of the background.

[00:31:46] But I don't like the explanation that they say that there's only one cause. Here, I found the Buddhist idea of yin, yang, gyokyo It means cause, conditions, and result. It's very useful.

[00:32:02] The cause is what already exists inside the person, such as personality, past experiences, emotional wounds, family relationships, or development characteristics inside, and the conditions are the triggers. It triggers the environment around them, such as unemployment, failing an exam, bullying, or breakup, or love, or a difficult relationship, or the attitude of parents.

[00:32:42] When those inner cause and outside conditions, the triggers meet; a certain result appears. With only the cause, the result doesn't appear, and only the trigger, the result doesn't appear. When it meets, the result appears. So, it's not simple, simply the economy is bad, so people will become hikikomori, or the person is weak, so they become hikikomori.

[00:33:14] It's not, that's so simple. But under modern capitalism, I think the outside conditions have become very harsh. Stable jobs are decreasing, insecure work is increasing, and once someone falls out of the normal career path, it can be very hard to return. At the same time, work isn't just about earning money.

[00:33:44] It's connected to social recognition, and even to our sense of human worth. So, losing a job can make a person feel, society doesn't need me. There are so many cultures where people are still accepted as members of the family and the community, even if they aren't earning money. But under capitalism, even families can become more about roles than belonging.

[00:34:18] Family is changing. That's why we cannot explain need and entity in NEET or hikikomori, only through individual psychology. We also have to look at the labor market, education, and the kind of people or society we were. From childhood, we are constantly evaluated by grades, schools, jobs, income, and productivity.

[00:34:49] So if people who don't fit that system are treated as if they themselves have less value, then maybe the problem isn't only the person. Maybe we also need to question the values of society itself.

Adam- [00:35:11] Good. No, that's very interesting. There were headlines in English papers at the weekend, literally on this issue, and saying it's a structural issue rather than as a societal issue. And I think that what you're saying is very, very powerful.

[00:35:27] Can I go on to question eight now? And I'm asking this sitting here in London, right? Do you think that there is a perspective that Western individualism has permeated East Asia, Japan, Korea, and often stripped people of their traditional moral and religious foundations, creating a certain degree of confusion, weakening communal bonds that once protected or enveloped young people? I mean, do you think there is a cultural shift and has that had any impact at all on what you talked about earlier, about isolation?

Minoru- [00:36:10] Oh, it's a very difficult question. When I think about this issue, I often think of the psychologist, Ferdinand Thorens, and his ideas of Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. Gemeinschaft is a community that grows naturally through human relationships, like family, neighborhoods, and villages. Gesellschaft is more about contracts, roles, functions, interests, and goals, like a company.

[00:36:45] So modern society has become more, very strongly Gesellschaft-oriented. The problem is that this goal-oriented way of thinking has also entered places that used to be more like Gemeinschaft, especially families and local communities. So now the family is no more only Gemeinschaft. It's very Gesellschaft, it's very changed.

[00:37:19] People can start to feel that if I'm not useful, maybe I don't really belong here. I cannot do my role; I cannot stay here. I think this is one important social background of Hikikomori. Capitalism makes it even stronger.

[00:37:40] Even when human relationships are judged by efficiency and value, someone who thinks I'm not useful may start feeling that there's nowhere they trust, truly, they truly belong. Traditional communities were not perfect all day. They could be very oppressive, but there were still places where a person could belong even without becoming somebody useful.

[00:38:17] There was discrimination between social classes, but within each class, in each class, people still support each other. Today, the former class system may be weaker. We are free, but meritocracy has created another kind of endless competition. It caused another discrimination.

[00:38:44] So everyone can become a competitor. And we lost places where we could belong without conditions. So, we don't contact people only because they are useful. We need relationships that remain even when we can do nothing.

[00:39:11] For me, the loss of those unconditional relationships is one of the core reasons for modern social isolation.

Adam- that's very thoughtful for me. And you're sitting there in Taiwan speaking to us today. I think that's very reflective.

[00:39:36] So thank you so much. But I'm slightly conscious of time. So, I'm going to go to my last question, which is sometimes in the world we're in at the moment with governments and politicians and policymakers. They're trying to define lack of engagement, hikikomori or NEETs as separate entities sometimes. But yet some researchers see them as a continuous spectrum of marginalization and isolation from simply not seeking a job to completely withdrawing from society.

[00:40:16] So based on your work, how do you navigate that? The boundary between hikikomori and NEETs? Is there a link or not? And how does your work inform that?

Minoru- [00:40:31] For policy definitions are very necessary. I understand why governments need to separate NEET and hikikomori to some extent. But from what I see in the field, that boundary looks quite artificial. The person doesn't suddenly wake up one morning and becomes hikikomori.

[00:40:55] There's usually a long process behind it. So, they may get hurt at home and school, start finding it harder to meet people, leaving a job, stop replying to friends, go outside less and less, and finally speak only with family members. So, I think it's more realistic to see NEET and hikikomori as different points on the same spectrum. So, some people move from long -term NEET status into hikikomori.

[00:41:33] But there are also countries with much higher unemployment where hikikomori is relatively uncommon. So, employment alone cannot explain it. For me, the more important question isn't simply does this person have a job? It's what kind of relationship does this person have with society?

[00:42:06] Not only a job, but it is also relationship and the relationship with himself or herself. So, some people don't work, but they have friends who go out and enjoy their lives. Other people go to work every day but live in their very deep loneliness. So, we can't measure social isolation only by employment status.

[00:42:38] This also connects to the idea of cause, condition, and result. If a person doesn't already carry a strong inner cause, like deep self-denial or a long-standing feeling that life is difficult, then unemployment alone doesn't necessarily lead to hikikomori.

[00:43:03] On the other hand, someone may temporarily leave hikikomori because they get a job, but if the deeper cause hasn't changed, if they still can't accept themselves for life as themselves, they may withdraw again and fall into hikikomori again when another difficulty event happens.

[00:43:38] So in Japan, the data from hikikomori, white paper showed that even among people who had left hikikomori and returned to social activities, around 80 % still said they continue to experience the mental difficulties in life, 80%. So, they are in suffer after hikikomori. So, for me, the real goal of hikikomori support isn't simply to end the hikikomori status. So, getting out of their room is not a goal.

[00:44:15] The deeper goal is self-acceptance. The deeper goal is self-acceptance. It's helping people reduce that deep sense that life itself is difficult and helping them live as themselves, I think. Thank you.

[00:44:39] Well, thank you very much. That's been Minoru, that's been fascinating insights and with your perspectives, drawing on your experience, your vast experience. Thank you so much. Now I'm going to pass over now to my colleague, Stella, who is in Korea and she's going to ask some other follow-up questions.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:44:58] Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Adam.

[00:45:02] Thank you, Minoru. This is a really inspiring presentation. Yeah. I have a lot of questions, but we don't have enough time. So maybe a couple of one or two questions goes to you. My first question is about your argument or school. In your presentation, in your recent presentation, you argue the school as a factory, factory of character destruction. (Yes, yes)

[00:45:43] I partly agree with your description of a school, but I'm not sure I would go as far as saying that the public education system actually destroys learners' characters. But what led you to such a strong conclusion, and could you share or elaborate personal experiences that shaped this view? Okay.

Minoru- [00:46:15] In the presentation I did recently, I mentioned the very negative influence of the schools about the school is destroying the children's mental or children's, how do I live the children's heart? And the feelings.

[00:46:52] Because nowadays education is too concentrated to the competitive and to get a high score or be, to go to a good university. So, they cannot find themselves. They cannot feel what they are.

[00:47:29] So they are too busy to study, and they are having not enough time to have a rest. So the problem is the system and the culture and the important thing is humans.

[00:47:52] So the relationship with the children, each other, and the relationship with the teacher and the students are, the relationship can save them from the bad influence of the nowadays educations. So I don't say that every school and every teacher are destroying the children's mental health.

[00:48:32] I don't say like that, but I want to say that teacher's role is to save them from the bad influence of the school. Now the school's bad influence. Did you get it?

Stella- Yes, yes, of course.

[00:48:58] It's really informative and illuminating. Thank you so much. And my second question is about emerging technology. Influence of technology, especially AI.

[00:49:13] You know, I'm currently leading the research on NEET and here in Korean context. And during my previous FGI, that group, I have heard many young NEETs spend a lot of time alone at home and rely heavily on AI tools like a Gemini and chat GPT for conversation. Rather than talking to human friends or teacher, even parents, they heavily rely on chat GPT. They really believe, trust what chat GPT said.

[00:49:57] So one counselor, she told me, more and more young people, young Korean are falling victim to things like a romance schemes. A lot of their various type of schemes in Korea. So a girl, a man, young man, they fall in love with AI. They believe they get married with this AI.

[00:50:31] Yes, yes. So have you seen this in your work or how do you think technology like AI, the large language model are affecting these young people?

Minoru- Actually, when I worked at the KT International Korea, I talked with my colleague that maybe some years later, AI will have the counseling instead of us. But the reality came faster than I thought.

[00:51:12] I think that talking with AI and the have a consulting from AI is, I don't think it's bad because have a consulting, the human real consulting is very expensive and when I want to die, I call to the lifeline, but the lifeline is always busy. I cannot connect with the lifeline. So AI is very convenient and very kind and very effective, and very, very acceptable. More than human, I think so.

[00:51:57] So it is a very effective tool when we use it in a good way. But almost every people know it is AI.

[00:52:17] So I think the problem is humans cannot do like AI. Actually, nowadays, AI is better than humans. The like, to talk with other people in very kind or answer in... The problem is not AI, but human cannot do better than AI. So AI is more sympathetic and can listen to other people's stories better.

[00:53:04] Especially, if close friends or parents can do like AI, I don't know how many problems can be solved. So I think we can learn from AI and learn how to empathize or how to talk. So I think whether AI can solve the problem or not depends on AI's performance.

Stella- [00:53:40] So in general, you are optimistic. AI can solve the problem of hikikomori or NEETs, but it contributes to some extent. Yes, it contributes a lot.

Minoru- [00:54:01] I met many hikikomori people who were saved by AI counseling. But they know it's AI. They don't misunderstand. Oh, AI is human.

[00:54:19] They don't misunderstand. So they are using AI. It's a very good tool. It's a very useful counselor.

[00:54:32] A counselor can be a machine or a human. Anyway, it is just a tool.

Stella- [00:54:42] So after counseling, the point is it's no problem that he or she can get the power to be with other people. Well, let me translate what Minoru said briefly. His point is overall, the AI, the large language model could be a good tool to replace the human counselor because of this function, the effective function like a sympathetic.

[00:55:26] He believes that if vulnerable young people make a relationship with parents or friends in deep, they don't need to use AI. But at the moment, their relationship normally makes a week. That's why these days; AI play a role in making relationships with the need people or the socially withdrawn young people. Minoru highlights that AI, especially the larger language model, could be the good, the powerful tool to resolve this issue, this problem.

[00:56:12] There are some more reasons because they don't have the power to go out and they don't have enough money. So it is free and they can have the AI's advice or consulting in their home and its very kind.

[00:56:38] I heard that many consultants and many counselors give them hurt, hurt it or they gave them, the counselors sometimes hurt them. It is a very bad words. So it's not, I don't think the human is better. The better people are better and better machine are better.

[00:57:19] I don't think the human are better. Thank you. Thank you so much, Minoru. And finally, as we wrap up, I'd like to ask for your final comment.

[00:57:37] So there may be young people listening from their rooms or parents outside those doors feeling helpless. So, what's the one last, one practical message you'd most like to share with them or our listener from across the world or and with a society as a whole?

Minoru- Hikikomori is, you are not alone. We are all together.

[00:58:08] We are one and I'm always be with you. If you feel lonely, there are a lot of people feeling lonely in this world together. So please contact anyone and please call and search for anyone you can meet. There must be a chance you can get. You must find any chance to find who is you, who are you and what I can do in your life because Hikikomori is not a tunnel, just a tunnel.

[00:59:05] Hikikomori is not just a cave. Hikikomori is a tunnel you can go through and you can find the light through the tunnel and you can go out to another place. It will lead you to delight and new and great place. So now your time with suffer will lead you to a grateful future. So don't give up yourself.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:59:47] Thank you, Minoru. Wow. Again, thank you for such a meaningful and inspiring conversation. So ultimately, today's conversation reminds us that helping socially drawn young people is not simply about getting them back into education or work, workplace, but about rebuilding the relationships, confidence, and sense of belonging that make reconnecting with our society possible.

[01:00:25] And perhaps above all, it reminds us that no young person should have to face isolation alone. We all have a role to play in building the bridge that helps them find their way back. I believe that today's conversation with Mr. Minoru will be one step toward resolving this important issue. I'm closing this episode.

[01:00:57] I'm Stella. Thanks for listening to Conversations4Citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to Conversations4Citizenship on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and Audible.

[01:01:17] And look for us on and finally, we launched the website of Crossing. So today's transcript with Minoru can be found https://www.bridgecitizen.org/ This episode of Conversations4Citizenship was produced by me, Kamille Beye, and Adam Lang. Recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Thank you so much, everyone. Take good care. Bye.

EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode, we sit down with Minoru Okusa, representative of NABIDO—an organization supporting social recluses, commonly known as hikikomori in Japan —to take a deep dive into youth isolation. He emphasizes that young people withdrawing from society is not a matter of laziness; rather, it is the burn-out from perfectionism and trying to meet overwhelming societal expectations. He explains that family dynamics begin to shift when parents let go of control over their children and embrace their own flaws first. Looking at the bigger picture, he points out how competitive education and capitalist structures push young people to the edge, asserting that true recovery is not just about finding a job, but restoring unconditional relationships and cultivating self-acceptance.

EPISODE NOTES

In this episode, we discussed with Minoru Okusa from NABIDO, a social cooperative that has supported socially withdrawn youths, commonly known as hikikomori for over 13 years, to explore the issue of youth isolation in modern society. He points out that young people withdrawing from society are not simply lazy; rather, they are burned out from perfectionism and the overwhelming pressure to meet expectations. To address this, he advises parents to stop trying to force change and instead leave their children as they are (NABIDO in Korean) which means let me alone, emphasizing that genuine recovery begins when parents acknowledge their own flaws. He also highlights that isolation stems not just from individual psychological factors, but from structural issues like meritocracy, an unstable job market, and a factory-like school system that fuels intense competition. Finally, noting how conversational AI has emerged as a helpful and compassionate tool for counseling, he adds that the ultimate goal of support is not merely getting young people out of their rooms, but helping them reach complete self-acceptance.

This episode is hosted by Dr. Adam Lang. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or Audible. You may also follow @c4cpodcast.bsky.social on Bluesky. The Conversations4Citizenship Podcast has launched Crossings, a new project website featuring research and educational resources on citizenship and human rights education, while creating opportunities for greater interaction with our listeners. We’d love to hear your thoughts and feedback on our episodes, and we invite you to explore our new membership programme, launching this November! Sign up on the Crossings website below to explore a wider range of resources and podcast episodes.

We look forward to hearing your feedback. If you would like to explore participating in our podcast and submit your blog post to the C4C, do not hesitate to reach out through the engagement menu of Crossings or email us at conversations4citizenship@gmail.com

If you are curious about Socially Withdrawn youths or Hikikomori and Mr. Minoru Ohkusa, please read his works linked below.