C4C 46 | Creating Safe Spaces: Prof. Yuto Kitamura Explores Japan's Hikikomori Epidemic

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TRANSCRIPT

Stella Micheong Cheong[00:00:00] Hello, listeners. Welcome to Conversations4 Citizenship Podcast. I'm your host, Stella Micheong Cheong. Following our illuminating conversation with Minoru Ohkusa from Navido on grassroots civil society responses, today we continue unpacking one of the modern society's most critical challenges, socially withdrawn youth, or commonly known as hikikomori, and the growing NEET (Not in Employment, Education or Training) population.

[00:00:41] We are thrilled to welcome Professor Yuto Kitamura from the University of Tokyo's Graduate School of Education, an expert who recently shed light on emerging educational research trend in Japan, in British Educational Research Association (BERA) Research Intelligence, and the role of the Japanese Educational Research Association.

[00:01:09] Together, we will dive deeper into theoretical and policy dimensions of this episode, exploring Japan's national curriculum reforms, the shifting reality of schooling, and workplace transition and systemic strategy to re -engaging disconnected youth. Hi, Yuto. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:38] Hi, Stella. Thank you. Thank you very much for giving me this precious opportunity. We really appreciate you being here. So to kick off our conversation today, our listeners on Conversations4Citizenship podcast are always eager to learn about our guest's personal intellectual journey. Can you share what initially sparked your passion for educational research and what key questions continue to drive your engagement with education in Japan today?

Yuto Kitamura [00:02:04] Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm specialized in comparative and international education, and I've been doing my research on educational policy in the context of developing countries, particularly in Southeast and South Asia.

[00:02:33] So I started my professional career working at the UNESCO headquarters in Paris, assisting the Ministry of Education of developing countries to formulate their basic education policies. So my research focus, you know, mainly on the context of developing countries. However, recently, I have been expanding my interest in the context of so -called developed countries as well, including Japan and some other countries, particularly looking at how the global citizenship education or education for sustainable development, we call ESD, how these kinds of education have been taking place in the context of developed countries. These are kind of new research interests for me over the last 10 years.

[00:03:26] And then anyway, whenever I look at the developing countries or developed countries, I always try to look at the public role, you know, what are the public roles of education in the context of society. So that's a research interest, but I also work practically as well. I mean, I've been serving as a member of the Board of Education of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government for the last 10 years.

[00:03:57] Tokyo has, you know, Tokyo's public school system, we have over 600 ,000 primary school students, 240 ,000 lower secondary and, you know, 100 ,000, 130 ,000 high school students, and then more than 70 ,000 teachers working in the system, public education system, public school system, I should say. So I do work more practically with these schools and teachers and students, as a member of the Board of Education. And also I've been involved in the formulation of national education policy with the Minister of Education in Japan. So I do research, but I'm also involved in these policy levels as well. So that's kind of my brief introduction of myself.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:04:54] That's fascinating. Wow, Yuto started your career at UNESCO, and now the Higher Education Institution, and even the policy contribution, that's so amazing. So, okay, so let me move on to the second question. So I'm really interested about your current research.

[00:05:22] So setting the broader scene against the backdrop, your recent piece for BERA, BERA highlighted crucial shift in Japanese educational scholarship. From your vantage point, what are the most pressing challenges facing Japanese schools and universities today?

Yuto Kitamura [00:06:02] Okay, thank you. I think many people understand that, or many people perceive the Japanese, the success of Japanese education as high academic achievement. And then we have also not cultured a sense of disciplines among the students. I mean, so that may contribute to stabilize our society and also the, you know, economic growth of the country. And, however, we now need to look more carefully about the mental and psychological conditions of the students these days.

[00:06:27] If you look at the OECD PISA, although Japanese students normally perform the highest amongst the OECD countries, their self -efficacy, the level of self -efficacy is very low, absolutely among the lowest, I mean, among the OECD countries. And then many people do not have enough interest in study as well. And they don't, they don't, so they don't have enough self -confidence, self -efficacy, and then do not show enough interest in what they are actually studying.

[00:07:08] So on the surface, Japanese education seems to be doing well. However, if you look more closely to the students, our kids, we have more psychological and mental problems, I mean, challenges. So that's one of the very important issues we have to look at. And then, because as I mentioned earlier, that I'm interested in the public role of education, how education really helps students or kids to be, you know, autonomous citizens later in their life. I think this issue is very much the center of my interest, both in terms of research as well as in practice. I hope this is clear to you. Yes. Okay.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:08:05] Wow. Yes. Oh, I'm very surprised by listening to the PISA results this year. The self -efficacy of Japanese students is quite low. So this is quite, it's naturally related to our main topic, hikikomori, or NEET population. So in terms of hikikomori, or students' well -being, the mental health, it's bringing us directly to a deeply concerning trend, the rising rate of futoko, in Japanese, or school non -attendance. How is this phenomenon currently understood in Japan?

[00:08:57] And does your research trace a direct line between early school refusal and long -term disengagement in young adulthood?

Yuto Kitamura [00:09:17] Thank you. Thank you. I mean, this is one of the very major social issues in Japanese society for many years. But at the same time, particularly recently, people have been worrying so much about this phenomenon. I mean, the futoko, that's a non-school attendance, this causes the hikikomori, the social withdrawal of youth and adults in later stage of their life. So we have to first look at the phenomenon of futoko, the non-school attendance. And then now, we are observing the increasing number of kids and students, they are not attending the schools. The most recent figure is over 415,000 students are not really attending primary nor secondary levels. This is a huge number for us. And then some of them can go back to the system, and then actually continue their study to higher education. But some may just be detached from the social life, then just to stay at home. So eventually, we observe them as a phenomenon of hikikomori, that's social withdrawal, right? And then also, there's another problem we call the NEET, not in employment, education or training. And then the futoko can be one of the causes of NEET as well. Because students or young youth, youth may not be well prepared for the workplace, because they don't attend the schools. So eventually, the futoko may lead to, may not lead to hikikomori, but can lead to NEET. So either ways, I mean, these are big challenges for us. And then if we look at the futoko, school non-attendance, we have many surveys, the ministries and the Board of Education, you know, we conduct a lot of surveys to understand why students are not attending schools. Some students have clear reasons, for instance, you know, they're suffering from bullying at schools, or they don't really perform well academically. But at the same time, a significant number of students actually do not understand why they cannot go to schools. So that's another difficult aspect of this phenomenon, because we, kids themselves do not really understand why they cannot go to school. They just cannot feel comfortable to attend school. And then they, you know, they feel very difficult. So in order to respond to such phenomena, recently, we, in Japanese educational scholars, as well as practitioners, we are discussing about the importance of providing the safe space for the students. This safe space in Japanese, we call ibasho. Ibasho is a safe and accepting place. So kids can feel more comfortable being there. So we need to create ibasho outside home, may not be school, but there can be some alternative schools, or a community centre, or some other, actually some private sector also provide spaces for such. Anyway, you know, in order to respond to this phenomenon of futoko, we shouldn't push kids, we should not force them to attend, go to school. So instead, we try to secure the kids to be more comfortable spending the time outside home. Because if they just stay home, eventually that's going to lead to the phenomenon of hikikomori, social withdrawal. So how to bring the kids out of home is one of the challenges. And then creating the ibasho, a safe and accepting place, is one of the ways we've been discussing in Japan.

Stella Micheong Cheong Oh, wow. Thank you for informative presentation. And Yuto, I do agree what you said, the schooling environment, and also maybe the alternative place for these kind of vulnerable groups. But what about the family? Because from my research, family factors seems quite essential. And literature highlights the family trauma, abuse, and parent psychiatric history as major factors for this social withdrawal. Do you agree? I'm wondering about your thought and the situation in Japan.

Yuto Kitamura Yes, I think that's a very important point to think. I mean, because futoko is not just an educational problem. I mean, it's more like social challenges. And then the family matters also need to be understood in the context of the social environment surrounding the families. For instance, of course, we have domestic violence or child abuse at some families. And then why that kind of phenomena can happen? I mean, one of the reasons can be the environment, the parents have been grown up, and they are now living. I mean, they may not be very treated in the society. And then, you know, the child abuse always kind of carry over over the generations. So they themselves may have some serious problems while they were small, their kids, and then the society couldn't help them. So that kind of repeat same thing to their kids. And then also, we have a long recession recently. Although in generally speaking, Japanese economy is still doing a lot far better than the world average, I think. However, we've been observing the clear gaps and the disparities among the social classes in Japanese society. And some people are kind of left out. And then those parents who may not take care of their kids properly, may be struggling economically and socially as well. So that cannot be solved without solving these social and economic problems. So that's one thing. Another thing, like many developed countries or, you know, those industrialized economies, Japan has been experiencing the phenomena of nuclear families. And then particularly in the urban areas, then you don't have anyone to depend, you don't live with your grandparents, or, you know, and then particularly in the urban settings, the community ties have been weakened. So we are kind of losing social capital, in particularly many urban places. So that can be also affecting how the parents treat their kids at home as well, because they may be very stressed out. And then they cannot really find the help and the support. So that's another issue. Very similar to creating the ibasho, safe space, we need to provide social support to families as well. So we cannot disconnect the family environment from social environment. So that's probably one of the challenges we are really struggling with these days.

Stella Micheong Cheong Alright 100% agree with you. And this social capital, especially what Robert Putnam said, bonding social capital is quite important in this context. And at the same time, the bridging social capital like ibasho, I think it's ibasho, might play a role as bonding social capital for this vulnerable youth. So let me let me turn on the education, the pedagogy, the curriculum design. So many scholars tell the curriculum should be reconstructed to resolve this issue. Do you agree? Or can you tell us more about national courses of study and recent revision in Japan?

Yuto Kitamura [00:20:09] Yes, yes, thank you. so -called course of study, that's a legally binding national curricula, that has been revised almost once in 10 years. And then we had, we are now in the process of revising new curricula. And then that will be introduced in a few years. But the existing one and then current discussions, both in the existing curricula course of study, as well as the discussions we are having at the Ministry of Education.

[00:20:49] I see that there has been very significant message coming out from the national curricula, that we have to really transform the pedagogy. So for instance, you know, we really need to cultivate a sense of agency among the students. And then you cannot just promote, you know, conventional mode of teaching and learning.

[00:21:21] That's why we are more eager to introduce a new pedagogical approach such as inquiry -based learning, active learning, to encourage students to be more independent and autonomous learners, right. And then in order to change this, I mean, because the society has been changing so significantly, and then very rapidly, students just cannot memorise whatever the, you know, the knowledge and skills that are presented in front of them.

[00:22:02] They must be the agency to explore the answers, you know, they must be the ones to explore the questions and then answers by themselves, these questions and explore the answers by themselves. So this kind of new characteristics of independent and autonomous learners as agency, that can actually affect to the conditions of students. In fact, that's something I've been actually worrying about. I mean, I myself have been looking at the new mode of pedagogy, such as education for sustainable development or global citizenship education. So these new type of studies or education, who will be benefit, and who are having more advantage and who have disadvantage of adapting to such new mode of teaching and learning, we really have to think about.

[00:23:15] So those students who are living in a well -resourced environment, you know, for instance, your family supports you and they care about you and you always have, you know, conversations about not only yourself or family, but also social agenda, political issues, economic conditions.

[00:23:39] If you have such environment living in such environment at home, or in your community, you are a lot more advantageous to adapt to new mode of teaching and learning, while some other kids who are very living in vulnerable conditions and then do not having scarce resources around the kids, you know, in the conventional mode of teaching and learning, you know, you could make efforts to memorize the textbooks and then try to practice, okay, by yourself, for instance, you know.

[00:24:25] However, the new mode of teaching and learning, you know, you have to work together with your colleagues, your, you know, classmates, or you have to go outside the schools to meet people in the community to learn about the society and social agenda. You know, some kids cannot easily adapt to such new mode of teaching and learning.

[00:24:55] I mean, so I've been concerning about the widening gaps between the kids with abundant resources, and those kids who are struggling to have such resources and support. So, coming back to the, you know, curriculum reform. Yes, I agree with the Ministry of Education and I agree that we need to transform our education to respond to the rapidly changing society, and then try to prepare our kids. I mean, make our kids prepare for such environment after completing schools. So, our curriculum needs to be transformed. However, we also need to pay attention on some of the kids who can be left out. So, that's, you know, something I think we really need to discuss about the curriculum reforms. How we can do both, you know.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:26:04] All right. Yeah. All right. Oh, wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing the current educational or curriculum reform in Japan. And I do agree what you pointed out, this new transformation of education in Japan, and that I really like inquiry -based learning.

[00:26:30] But following up this, following up your presentation, your explanation, so we all know the inquiry -based education, or the project -based learning, those kind of learning and teaching mode, quite excellent. But, you know, these young people, the need population or socially withdrawn youth, they are literally withdrawn, or some of them already dropped out of school.

[00:27:12] And how can help or how can allow those people into this curriculum, or the education mode or education system?

Yuto Kitamura [00:27:50] Yeah, thank you. I think, you know, to be honest, I do not have a perfect solution to such challenges. However, like some hints we can understand is, for instance, you know, creating ibasho, safe space, or futoko. That creation of safe space is something more flexible way to support the kids, not putting them in the schools or regular schools, you know, but something more alternative. So same kind or same way of thinking can be applied to support those youth and even adults who are need or who are hikikomori. I think we really need to make our system more flexible.

[00:28:29] Okay, so, for instance, school system needs to be more flexible. So now, for instance, there are some type of specific type of particular high schools have been becoming popular in Japan. That's a long distance learning you know, type of schools. I mean, I should have known what's the English word for this.

[00:29:05] But, you know, students register to the school, but they don't physically attend these schools. They are like, you know, they are like online, online high schools. Yeah, like online high schools. Okay, so they then these online high schools, for instance, you know, students can take time to get the credit to graduate.

[00:29:32] So normally we have three years of high school, the upper secondary levels. However, you can spend four or five years if you like, you know, you can study with your own pace. And then, you know, you can also find the courses that interest you more besides the very, you know, the wider regular high schools, it's more rigid. And then you have to really follow the same class schedules.

[00:30:10] And then, you know, so this kind of more flexibility needs to be assured for students. And then it's not only for the school system, but for the social system, for instance, you know, the training system can be designed in a flexible manner as well. Japanese society is very, you know, of course we have diversity, but at the same time in Japan, it can be often characterized as more homogeneous and quite rigid.

[00:30:48] So, for instance, you know, those university graduates, college graduates, they have a particular time of year, particular season of the year, they do the job hunting. Okay. And everybody does the same thing for looking for the job when they are, you know, second half of the third year and the first half of the fourth year of college. So actually, they don't really come to the university or college.

[00:31:16] So that's a kind of headache to the university professor like myself. How to bring those kids, I mean, those students who are looking for their jobs to bring to the schools, because they are so busy for looking for the job. Then, you know, they, that's why they are busy, so busy, because that's the biggest chance for the college graduates to obtain the jobs.

[00:31:47] Once you graduate, you have a huge disadvantage of getting jobs, because Japanese, many Japanese firms still have very rigid hiring system, you know, recruiting the new college graduates and then keeping them for almost, you know, whole life, you know, like 40 years. Although we have, you know, recently we have really changed this kind of rigid system, but still comparing to many other countries, you know, Japanese hiring system is very rigid.

[00:32:25] And then, if we can make this kind of a hiring system more flexible, yeah, then try to provide more training opportunity to those who are need, like not in employment, educational training, or those hikikomori, the social withdrawal youth.

[00:32:49] If we can provide training opportunities to them, and then the companies or, you know, those working places, not necessarily the private sector, but also the public sector, if they can, you know, provide more flexible, flexible opportunities, job opportunities to these people, you know, they may be able to go back to the system. But now, the Japanese social system is too rigid, and then, you know, not really flexible. So I think, you know, this society needs to be changed.

[00:33:27] Of course, the private sector and the board, as well as public sector needs to be changed. But also, the us who are in education sector need to raise voices about this situation. Because I've been telling my colleagues, you know, that very, you know, rigid hiring system of new college graduates, we, many, majority of Japanese, you know, professors, kind of have given up. You know, the idea of keeping students, you know, during the job hunting season.

[00:34:10] So we kind of think, you know, they cannot come to class, because they are looking for the jobs. Yeah, they are busy. So we understand. However, you know, we are the one who produce the college graduates.

[00:34:24] So we have to be more, you know, tough to the private sector, not to continue the same kind of, you know, hiring system. You know, we should, we should raise voices. So, I mean, that's something at least we in the education sector should think more seriously. And I talked to my students as well.

[00:34:49] And then they understand that at the same time, you know, that's their life. And then they think, you know, they understand that problem of this job hunting or hiring system. But they cannot really raise their voices because they are the ones who will be recruited. So if we don't do anything, the situation will not change.

[00:35:17] I mean, this problem has been aware, been aware among the society, people in the society for many, many years, but you know, not much has been changed, because we think this is the system. So probably Japanese society is a bit conservative to radically change the social system, but at least we need to raise voices. So I hope this is kind of, you know, this is a clear response to what you asked.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:35:58] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I can fully understand. And while you're talking about the current situation in Japan, the job market, and I'm also thinking of the current situation in Korea, but it's not only for Korea, I think it's all over the world because of the AI, this emerging technology shift, all level of society.

[00:36:27] So in my another research, I, my colleague, I'm working with two economists about automation, the humanoid robot, how this automation affects the workplace education, and the new book chapter will be published soon. And interestingly, not good situation. Even the my students also complained that the current job market situation, that any, any congregate, any big company, never ever hired the junior level employers. And I what I call this is a seniority based technology shock. The company hire the only senior level train already trained workers thought, I'm wonder, I'd like to hear more about the Japan's situation, because I think this one also related to the hikikomori, the phenomena. So how decisively are these macroeconomic and technological shift push use entirely out of the labor force? So what the situation in Japan?

Yuto Kitamura [00:37:49] Yeah, I think the situation in Japan is almost exactly what you explained. I mean, we are losing junior level jobs, depressed by AI and those technologies. So young, young people are having more difficult, more, more difficult, they are more difficult to find jobs, particularly stable jobs. You know, many young people are now working with contract based jobs.

[00:38:30] And then, this is a quite, actually, kind of contradiction to what I kind of explained earlier, because the so called lifetime employment model has been the characteristics of Japanese companies. So this lifetime employment model, still we have such a model, but may not be applied enough to some younger generations. I mean, actually, the older generation as well.

[00:39:15] I mean, now many people are now losing the more stable jobs. And then, but particularly younger ones, as you rightly said, the requirements for getting job has been so significantly changed. And then younger junior workers do not have enough opportunities to really develop their skills, and then accumulate their experiences. Because they don't have enough time to do so.

[00:39:50] I mean, now technologies can easily replace more simplified manual type jobs. And then only the small number of very senior experienced workers that company may need. And then the rest, they just hire the workers with contract based and only when they need some, you know, some human resources, but that may not last for long.

[00:40:29] So that kind of macroeconomic situation has been really affecting the job opportunities for the younger people. So that's exactly the same, I mean, happening in Japan. So how we can change that situation? That's a big challenge.

[00:40:51] I think I don't have any clear answer to that. At The same time, I mean, at the same time, I see some hope among some of the young people who are now trying to be more independent and autonomous. For instance, you know, some of my students are now very much interested in starting the, you know, the companies by themselves, creating the jobs by themselves.

[00:41:24] So that's quite significant changes, comparing to the past. For instance, you know, our student, I teach at the University of Tokyo, that's being kind of considered the top school to produce very elite public servants, and they're also the business leaders in Japanese societies for many, many years.

[00:41:55] And then, but recently, some of our students and graduates are not really looking for those, you know, elite public servant jobs, or nor, you know, business leaders in mega firms. Instead, they try to, you know, start work for the startups, or, you know, try to create new jobs.

[00:42:22] So, if, you know, we can, but I shouldn't generalize my students to the majority of the young population in Japan, because my students were a lot more, you know, advantageous, comparing to the majority of young populations. You know, they are considered elite students and elite youth, and they're having more resources surrounding them.

[00:43:02] So, but the point I'd like to make with this example, is not try to encourage people to create jobs or people to, you know, start the companies, but I just would like to encourage people to change their mindset in Japan.

[00:43:31] In Japanese society, people are preoccupied with the image that if you don't get the good jobs with a good company, large company in the early career, you are not really, you know, your working life will not be successful. That's kind of very, you know, old stereotypical image has been always, you know, preoccupied. And then another issue is, we have probably not developed enough safety net for the people who have challenged.

[00:44:11] So, my students or my graduates, they are more fortunate because they have more network to be helped, because, you know, our alumni may help those, or, you know, their family members, you know, a lot more well off. So, even when you fail to start up your company, or, you know, if you fail, but you can still do again. But the majority of the people, majority of the youth, they don't have enough safety net.

[00:44:53] I mean, in Japan, we, I don't think we have developed enough social system to help or support those who tried, but not, but failed, you know, who are not successful.

[00:45:14] I mean, for instance, you know, we have a very well -known metaphor, I mean, or an anecdote, I mean, in the US, when you borrow money from the bank or venture capital, you know, if you fail once or twice, you know, you create a company and failed, bankrupted, the bank or venture capital trust you more, because you have more experiences, okay.

[00:45:48] But in Japan, if you start your company and bankrupted, no one wants to lend money to you, because you failed. So, only one fail finish your life, while in some other societies, the failure can be valued in some other ways.

[00:46:16] So, we really need to change our mentality and our value system, and try to develop more, you know, safety net for people who want to challenge, who want to make efforts to do something more new and innovative. So, if we can create this kind of culture in our society, you know, the situation may change. And then this kind of culture may be inherited, not only for the jobs, but in the school system as well.

[00:46:56] So, you know, we have a pretty severe entrance exam system to go on to the higher levels of education. Of course, comparing to South Korea and China, we are less severe. In East Asia, you know, we have a very, very high, you know, the different students compete high stake entrance exam, and then they're really stressed out for that. And then South Korea and China, these are probably a lot more severe comparing to Japan.

[00:47:32] But at the same time, Japan, we still have some severe, this kind of severe high stake examination systems. And then in this kind of system, you know, if you don't pass the entrance exam of good schools, you feel you are a loser.

[00:47:57] Okay. And then, so what I'd like to emphasize here is that even education sector in the school system, we may be actually contributing to keep the conventional value system. I explained. So, we should make our school system more flexible, and, you know, let people make mistakes, or let people fail.

[00:48:33] I think this is very important. I mean, because, for instance, you know, I really like to read John Dewey. And then, you know, Dewey really emphasized that, you know, school as a form of, he viewed school as a form of social life. Okay.

[00:48:58] So, anything happening in society should happen inside schools. So, cooperation, conflict, responsibility, exclusion, care, you know, all occur inside a school. I mean, because that is happening in society. But the one difference between society and school, in school, inside the school, students can make mistakes.

[00:49:26] Because they are not mature. They are mature. So, they can make a mistake, and then they can try again. So, they are more protected.

[00:49:36] So, that's, you know, how we can really think of creating our school environment more safe and accepting. So, actually, you know, I may go back to the original point of my discussion of creating ibasho. So, if a school can become ibasho, safe and accepting space, you may not need anywhere else.

[00:50:16] But unfortunately, Japanese schools, some may be successful, but many may not be really creating the ibasho for some students. So, that's what I think. I mean, I'm sorry, I probably talk too long. No, no, no.

Stella Micheong Cheong [00:50:40] No, thank you so much for illuminating presentation. And I love what you said, let people make a mistake. And I do agree that society should be allowed people to failure and give a second chance. And yeah, it would be the effective way to resolve this issue. And given the time constraint, I'm going to pass over to my colleague, Adam. And Adam, thank you so much.

Adam Lang [00:51:14] Thank you, Stella. You too. Just a couple of quick follow ups. It's been very interesting listening to what you're saying. I just wanted to go back to JIRA, the Japanese Educational Research Association. And I just was interested to read what you said about curriculum design in here every 10 years.

Yuto Kitamura [00:51:31] How influential are educational researchers like yourself and others in Japan on influencing policy? Thank you. Thank you. Actually, of course, you know, like many other countries, the Japanese Educational Research Association, the JIRA, we have a very diverse group of scholars and researchers in the society.

[00:51:58] So, there are some people who are quite actively criticizing what the government does. So, you know, not all, not many, not all, of course, the members of JIRA, Japanese Educational Research Association, work with government. But at the same time, a certain number of people, actually quite a significant number of people working with the national ministry or local authorities to formulate their education policies.

[00:52:34] So, some of the very active members of JIRA have been actually heavily involved in the process of reforming the course of study, national curricula. And then JIRA itself occasionally organize the sessions to discuss how the new national curricula should be. So, particularly at the occasion of annual conference, every summer, we have annual conference. And then in that occasion, we often organize the sessions to discuss about the national curricula and also education policy.

[00:53:14] Thank you. And just leading on from that, there's so much from what you said, but I just picked up particularly about when you were talking about your students, actually, and a preparation of teachers, social workers, or business entrepreneurs or whatever. Is there a move in Japan to sort of re -look at that, the preparation of those people, particularly with the challenges that you've got with non -attendance and so on? Could you repeat your question again?

Adam Lang [00:53:51] Really, what I'm saying is, is there a move in Japan to sort of re -look at the way in which you train teachers, people that work with young people, in the light of developments that you've highlighted?

Yuto Kitamura [00:54:08] Yes, yes, of course. I mean, we really try to encourage the, you know, for instance, teachers and also social workers to be aware of the issues we, I just discussed throughout the program today.

[00:54:26] And then also, we are promoting not only teachers to deal with these kind of challenges, so that's a kind of tradition of Japanese schools that the teachers shoulder so much response, different types of responsibilities to support their students.

[00:54:57] And then, Japanese, I mean, actually, if you look at the OECD data, the Japanese teacher, average working hours of Japanese teachers are a lot more than the average working hours of OECD member countries. And then, you know, more than 10 or more hours over per week. But if you just look at the hours the Japanese teachers spend for their educational activities, like, you know, teaching in the class or preparing for the class, almost same as average working hours of OECD member countries. So that means Japanese teachers are doing a lot more work other than educational activities. So they need to do like a counseling for their guidance for students or, you know, their club activities, extracurricular activities, teachers need to be involved. And then, you know, there are many administrative works as well.

[00:56:15] So that has been the problem we have been observing. So we are now trying to increase the number of support type jobs in schools. So like we call school social workers, school counselors, school lawyers. So all these new type of jobs have been kind of emerging at the Japanese schools.

[00:56:45] And then the government's tried to secure the budget to hire people for supporting teachers. So why I mention about this because we don't just make teachers aware of the issues I explained today, but we need to also change the system for teachers to deal with their students more easily by receiving the assistance from different professionals. And also supporters.

[00:57:27] So that's the kind of recent trend we are trying to promote. I hope this is clear to you. No, that's very, very interesting. Actually, the dynamic of who's actually working with young people, taking them forward and helping them in this position.

Adam Lang [00:57:47] I mean, this is a global phenomenon, NEET. It's an acronym that I don't like because it's negative. It's quite an ugly phrase. But nevertheless, it's interesting. It's been used all over the world. And I'll just be a bit parochial sitting here in London. I mean, it's a big issue for our new government, actually. A big issue.

[00:58:04] Over one million young people from 16 to 24 categorized in that group. But there has been some pushback. And I wonder whether there has been in Japan with some people saying, oh, this is a snowflake generation. That's the first thing.

[00:58:22] Although actually, that's been rebuffed by a big piece of work that the government has just done. They're not saying that. But what about that? Is this is the other factor that comes?

[00:58:35] Tough love, which is something which is talked about in education. How do you balance that by saying, well, you need some elements of that with young people are guiding them through their lives, but also to recognize the challenges that we're not just talking about, but they're there, aren't they? We see them in your country. You gave the figures.We see them everywhere. So something needs to happen. But how do you respond to that?

Yuto Kitamura [00:59:07] I think, of course, I mean, among Japanese youth, there has been more diversity comparing to the past. So I cannot really generalize the situation of the youth today. But at the same time, we still consider the young people, particularly those students, as someone who need to be protected. And then that means we may not listen enough to what they are actually thinking.

[00:59:52] So that's a kind of the mentality of teachers as well as parents. So that may have both, I don't say positive, but that may have some easier aspect for the youth and the students. I mean, they can just depend. They don't have to be independent.

[01:00:23] They don't have to be autonomous. They don't have to. They can more simply depend on their parents or guardian or teachers or adults. However,

[01:00:39] I don't, I mean, I mentioned about the issue of agency. Our society also wants our youth and students be more independent and autonomous and then really try to, you know, cultivate a sense of agency. So the adults, including teachers and parents, or particularly teachers and parents, I may need to say so, need to change our mentality towards the, or our attitudes towards the students and youth. You know, they need, students and youth need to be more trusted.

[01:01:20] And then, you know. Yes, that's a very good. Yeah, no, that's very good. Students, young people need to be more trusted, I think.

Adam Lang [01:01:31] I'm going to come to the end now. But Yuto, this has been fascinating. We could go on for a lot longer. I just wondered if you, if there's anything that you wanted to say or add to the discussion or conversation that we haven't asked you or specifically you wanted to raise with our listeners?

[01:01:50] Or have we covered everything? As much as we can, as much as we can in this hour of very interesting discussion.

Yuto Kitamura [01:02:01] Thank you. Thank you. I mean, again, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to share, you know, what is happening in Japan and what I have been observing and what I've been thinking about. Of course, you know, what I talked has been biased by myself as well. You know, so there has to be, there have to be various different ways to describe what is happening in Japan and then in Japanese school systems and then among Japanese youth. So, I just, what I could say is very limited.

[01:02:40] But at the same time, I think we really need to change, change our culture, our values, our system. I mean, of course, we need to preserve some very essential core of those as well in order to, you know, keep our society as it is.

[01:03:18] However, since the society, our youth, our students will live in future must be very different from what we have been, we have gone through. So, we should not be afraid to change our, you know, culture, our value and our system in education sector. So, that's I would like to say in the end. I hope this makes sense to you.

Adam Lang [01:03:56] No, thank you so much. Yuto, well, I just like to thank you so much for such a meaningful and illuminating conversation. I mean, I picked up so much and I'm sure our listeners will. But those last comments about the need for change, you've challenged us actually to reflect and on our systems and really to reflect on where we are.

[01:04:22] And also, the other thing I picked up very much from what you said was the fact that in the education system, we have an obligation really to raise voices. People might not, some people might not want to hear them, but we have an obligation to do that. But I mean, you mentioned hope in there. We always like to see in there.

[01:04:42] And also, you weren't saying there's a perfect solution, but you are saying that the system is too rigid and you need more flexibility. And I particularly like this idea of a safe space for young people and for their families and also the sense of agency for students. You mentioned trusting students, listening to students so that we're challenging some of our conventional forms of education, more inquiry based levels, working with groups. You mentioned looking outside of the community, outside of schools, I mean.

[01:05:27] And so I found that all very interesting. So going back, so you started off by saying Japan has this view that it's high academic achievement. However, what we're seeing is the mental and psychological impacts on Japanese students. And on the surface, your country seems to be doing well.

[01:05:49] But when you look closely, there are important challenges. And you are raising the fact that we must recognise those challenges and do something about it. So I think that resonates not with Japan, not just with our listeners, but actually phenomenons that we're facing in different parts of the world as we speak. We're trying to reflect on that in this season of Conversations4Citizenship.

[01:06:18] So I'm now going to close this episode. I'm Adam Peter Lang. Thank you so much for listening to Conversations4Citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode and be sure to subscribe to Conversations4Citizenship on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music and Audible.

[01:06:40] And look for us on x .c4c .education and bluesky .c4cpodcast .bsky .social. Now, a transcript of today's very interesting conversation with Professor Yutu will be found on crossings www .bridgecitizenship .org. And this episode of Conversations4Citizenship was produced by me, Adam Peter Lang, Kamille Beye and Stella Cheong. And it's recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. So take good care, everybody. Goodbye.

EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode, Prof. Yuto Kitamura from the University of Tokyo discusses the rising challenges of socially withdrawn youth, NEETs, and school non-attendance (futoko) in Japan. Despite high academic rankings, Japanese students struggle with low self-efficacy. Kitamura highlights the need to create safe, accepting spaces called "ibasho" to support vulnerable youth. He examines how rigid hiring practices and a lack of social safety nets prevent young people from recovering from failure. Ultimately, he calls for systemic flexibility, better support for overworked teachers, and an educational culture that allows students to make mistakes and rebuild their confidence.

EPISODE NOTES

Prof. Yuto Kitamura explores the hidden crisis within Japan's highly ranked education system, focusing on the alarming rise of school non-attendance (futoko) and social withdrawal (hikikomori). He explains that while Japanese students excel academically, they rank among the lowest globally in self-efficacy. To address this, Kitamura advocates for the creation of "ibasho", which are safe and accepting spaces that offer alternatives to rigid traditional schooling. He connects the youth crisis to broader socio-economic issues, including weakened community ties, inflexible corporate hiring practices, and an educational culture that heavily penalizes failure. While supporting new inquiry-based learning models, he warns that curriculum changes must not leave under-resourced students behind. Kitamura urges educators and policymakers to increase systemic flexibility, provide robust safety nets, reduce the administrative burden on teachers, and ultimately trust young people to navigate their own paths.

This episode is hosted by Dr. Stella Cheong. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, Audible or many other podcast platforms. You may also follow @c4cpodcast.bsky.social on Bluesky. The Conversations4Citizenship Podcast has launched Crossings, a new project website featuring research and educational resources on citizenship and human rights education, while creating opportunities for greater interaction with our listeners. We would love to hear your thoughts and feedback on our episodes, and we invite you to explore our new membership programme, launching this November! Sign up on the Crossings website below to explore a wider range of resources and podcast episodes.

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If you are curious about NEET or Hikikomori and Prof Yuto Kitamura, please read his works linked below.