Episode 42 | Unlocking Minds: The Transformative Power of University-Prison Partnerships

Aug 2
27 min read

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TRANSCRIPT

Kamille Beye 11:11

Hello, listeners, and welcome to the Conversations4Citizenship podcast. I'm your host Kamille Beye. Today we are delighted to welcome Dr. Magdalena Fellner, whose work focuses on the connections between education, educational institutions, and social inequality. Her research explores questions of equal opportunity and access to higher education, grounded in the idea that the ability to study is not a neutral or fixed trait, but something that is socially shaped. In particular, her work examines how structural barriers within education systems can position prisoners as non-academic learners, limiting their access to higher education, even in a country like Germany, where rehabilitation is a central principle of the justice system. Today we are we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Magdalena Fellner, a fierce advocate for higher education access. Dr. Fellner's work examines how German institutions decide who gets to access higher education. Her work examines the tensions between the widening of access and the exclusion of some by gatekeepers by examining German prison education options. Dr. Fellner's work shows that while education is the right in Germany, prisoners face a great deal of limitations when trying to access further learning. Thank you so much for joining us at Conversations for Citizenship. Dr. Fellner, Hi!

Magdalena Fellner 12:47

Kamille. It's nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Kamille Beye 12:50

It is our pleasure. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how your research journey led you here?

Magdalena Fellner 12:58

Yes, sure. So, my interest in the topic of social inequalities reproduced in and through educational institutions actually began when I attended school in Mexico at the age of 16, and during that year I discovered firsthand that rather than equalizing educational institutions reinforce and legitimize social inequalities, the best resources, opportunities, and attention often go to those who are already privileged, while others are left behind. When I returned to my home country of Austria, I enrolled in a program to become a teacher in secondary schools, but to be honest, as a teacher, my ability to affect systemic change was quite limited. I was essentially expected to also reproduce existing social inequalities by grading students and inscribing social patterns into these grades. I then started working at the Vienna Board of Education, but the scope for real change remained quite limited, so I decided to move to university and do a PhD in educational sciences, and my research focused on the historical reasons for and against admitting students to universities based on justifications that now seem rather ridiculous, such as whether someone was born in wedlock, their political affiliation, religion, or social class.

I eventually ended up as a postdoctoral researcher at an international centre for higher education research at the University of Kassel in Germany, and in this role I continued to examine the specific factors that exclude certain groups from participating in higher education. I then came across the topic of higher education in prison settings, as this is a group that is not sufficiently considered in higher education research. While many studies focus on the inclusion of first generation or working class students or students with disabilities, which is also extremely important, and comparatively little research has been conducted on the inclusion of incarcerated students. However, I firmly believe that education is a human right and should be accessible to all. This includes higher education, of course. And because it does not only increase employability, but also enables us to think more critically, understand societal structures better, and navigate them more effectively. Education can therefore be truly liberating, as emphasized by Paulo Freire and Bell Hooks through their concept of critical pedagogy.

Another reason why I am interested in this topic, is to understand the potential and limits of education. Often we believe we know what education is and what it can do, but I think we lack clarity about its specific role. For example, we need to understand how it can enhance social skills, reflective and critical thinking, and how it can contribute to more just societal structures at the macro level, so I really want to understand how specific programs are designed to affect change and what is needed for that.

Kamille Beye 15:48

That's very interesting. I appreciate you going back to the initial impact of being in Mexico at the age of 16 and how that helped you to get to where you are now. It's amazing, and you know we all have our own stories about how we get into education, but I'd like to look at how your work challenges the idea that the ability to study is something fixed, and I want to specifically talk about incarcerated people, since that's where we are now, and I want to know, do you think that incarcerated people are among the groups that are most excluded in higher education today, or from higher education today.

Magdalena Fellner 16:26

Yes definitely. In many ways, they are. I think one of the key issues is how we talk about the ability to study. It's often presented as an inherent fixed trait, but in reality, it is shaped by opportunity support systems and the broader context in which people find themselves, but so incarcerated individuals, for example, they face multiple overlapping layers of institutional and social exclusion that significantly limit their access to higher education, and these barriers can create the false impression that the issue is a lack of ability, when in fact it's much more about access and external conditions that can hinder people from participating in higher education,

Kamille Beye 17:08

I was thinking too about being excluded from higher education, but also not in your interview now, but you talk about these intersections and how we talk about just not just the current intersection, but things that happened before, and so that's really interesting. And so I wanted to go into this idea about prisoners and basic skills and job training. So I, I'm not as familiar with the German prison situation, but I know that in the US we also have similar programs. We do have degree programs and we have basic training, and it seems as you mentioned that a lot of these prison programs still focus on basic education or basic training, and how do you feel about that reflecting the actual needs of people today? And then what types of assumptions are the gatekeepers making about prisoners and their abilities to do.

Magdalena Fellner 18:02

Yes that's a great question. I'm convinced that the focus on basic skills and job training in prison education reflects systemic and institutional assumptions far more than individual preferences. While basic skills and vocational training are important without question, when they become the ceiling rather than part of a broader educational offering, they signal limited expectations of what incarcerated people can achieve. This can give the impression that the right education and the expectations placed on certain individuals are limited to basic education and training only. In other words, when the sole focus is on basic skills or job training, the broader potential of education is not fully realized, and on top of that, there are institutional barriers, so many prisoners are perfectly capable of engaging in higher education, but systems often prioritize those with short-term sentences, for example, nevertheless, those deprived of liberty could continue with their studies after release, so long sentences are not necessarily required for study to ensure that access to education in prison is not limited to those serving long sentences. It is essential to implement mechanisms allowing those who started studying before or during incarceration to resume during or after their imprisonment. Against this backdrop. Well-functioning partnerships between prisons and universities are becoming more and more important, and moreover, consistent research also shows that individuals in prison who have, who participate in some kind of prison-university partnerships, have significantly lower reoffending rates than those who do not. However, education has a transformative dimension that goes well beyond measurable outcomes, such as reduced recidivism rates, and I think this is an important point to raise here. It can reshape how individuals see themselves and others, foster meaningful relationships, and enhance the overall quality of life. For some it makes it marks a turning point, and for others it fulfills a deep spiritual and intellectual need.

Kamille Beye 20:07

Yes, this is the idea that education, as you said, is transformative, transformational, but it builds competence in prisoners as well, and so as you mentioned, this idea of there's a preference for those who have short-term sentences, etc. Then, how do you see prison education systems reinforce an inequality rather than reducing it?

Magdalena Fellner 20:30

Yes I believe that inequality is reinforced when access to education depends on factors such as formal qualifications, the type of prison, or the length of a prison sentence, for example, individuals in pretrial detention are often completely excluded from educational opportunities. Furthermore, limited digital access, bureaucratic hurdles, and a lack of academic support disproportionately affect those who are already disadvantaged in terms of education. Against this spectrum, higher education is offered in only a few correctional facilities, in addition, these opportunities are mostly restricted to men's facilities, which is also quite problematic, given the lack of access to women's facilities. However, we also know that many prisoners participating in university programs are already quite privileged. In many cases, they have received their school living examinations and studied before incarceration, we can observe the Matthew effect here, whereby the more advantages people have, the easier it is for them to accumulate their privileges. We can say that those incarcerated individuals who participate in higher education are not necessarily the ones who need it most, but in fact, the prison student population is very diverse as well, this also highlights the need, as you said, for intersectional approaches, and as you can imagine, many incarcerated individuals have had negative experiences with educational institutions and have internalized the idea that they are not worth it or unable to study. However, if we are serious about equity, this has to change altogether. Education not only opens doors to new opportunities, but also broadens our horizons and expands the way we think. If universities rely heavily on formal qualifications for admission, many highly intelligent, motivated, and capable potential students could be excluded. However, I would like to highlight that some programs do admit students without a formal school leaving examination, for example, the Bard Prison Initiative in the United States administers its own aptitude test to evaluate whether incarcerated applicants are prepared for participation in their higher education programs. In this case, students without a formal school leaving qualification, who gained access to these programs, demonstrated that they can achieve results comparable to or even better than those of the students, traditional universities in the free world.

Kamille Beye 22:54

I think that's true. I used to work at a prison, and we did higher, well, we did K through 12 education, really high school education, so we worked with I worked with students pretrial, and then once they received their sentencing, they had to go into adult population, and so it was really interesting to hear how you talk about the students as they go on to the university experience and what they have or they don't have in preparation for it, and so you had mentioned several things about some of the disadvantages that prisoners have you also talked about men having more facilities than women, and can you also talk about any other structural barriers that might limit the access to higher education?

Magdalena Fellner 23:32

Definitely.. So, key barriers include restricted internet access in the first place, which makes participation in modern higher education extremely difficult, given that universities and societies are becoming increasingly digital, as well as limited study spaces in correctional facilities and learning materials. And then there can be further challenges, such as limited or even a lack of support from the staff members at prisons, as well as universities, and very little peer support, which might be essential in some cases. On the other hand, there are university-related challenges, including limited willingness or administrative barriers, such as difficulties with enrollment, credit transfer, or access to financial support, which might further complicate participation, and together these factors create an environment that is not conducive to sustained academic study. And finally, limited public support can also make it harder to secure funding for prison university initiatives.

Kamille Beye 24:32

We have something similar here in the US. They say that the average cost the house of prisoners $40,000 per year, and that's probably gone up with inflation, and so when you pose the argument to the public that we should educate so that their recidivism lessons and people have an opportunity outside, there's a lot of balking at taxpayer dollars for prison education, but it still happens in some cases, and so I would like to talk about the idea of policymakers and practitioners, so when you're talking about education as a right, and we know that people who are educated, they transform in many ways, not just their education, but their skills and their overall health, etc. What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you hear about prisoners in higher education, especially now we're talking about public and public perception of tax dollars.

Magdalena Fellner 25:25

I believe that there are actually many misconceptions. A common misconception, for example, is that education is a privilege rather than a right, and others believe that people cannot change, that they are either not worth investing in, as you said, or not capable of studying, and people also tend to divide others into good and bad, yet reality is far more nuanced, as we know. Research consistently, I'm sure, said socialist socialization, environment, and biographical experiences play a significant role in shaping behavior and moving beyond binary thinking, such as good versus bad and simplistic dichotomies is essential if we are to understand crime justice and rehabilitation more meaningfully, and there is also risk in adopting a deficit-oriented approach towards incarcerated learners that reduces them to their offenses, obscuring complexity, context, and potential for change. Another misconception is that investing in higher education for incarcerated people has limited societal return. However, research repeatedly demonstrates that education, especially at high levels, supports reintegration into society and reduces recidivism, as you said earlier, but its impact extends much further. Education can transform how individuals see themselves and others foster meaningful relationships. Moreover, individuals who study while in prison often go on to contribute positively to their communities after release, helping to prevent others to follow similar pathways into crime. In this way, education in prison can provide meaning, direction, and purpose in life

Kamille Beye 27:02

I totally agree, and so I wanted to talk about the ability to study for these prisoners, and so you suggest that we talk about the study ability in a more relational way, and I know that you also mentioned in your work that it's structural, so what does that mean in practice for someone who's designing a prison education program today?

Magdalena Fellner 27:28

Another good question. A relational understanding of studyability means recognizing that the capacity to study is shaped by the environment. Basically, in practice, this involves designing educational programs that provide strong and reliable support structures, such as tutoring, access to up-to-date learning materials, and flexible study arrangements that can accommodate different life circumstances. It also requires addressing institutional barriers that restrict participation in the first place, such as limited access to courses or technologies, and instead creating pathways that allow learners to develop and progress over time, rather than filtering them out early in the process. At the same time, this perspective acknowledges that students come with very different social backgrounds, educational histories, and prior knowledge. Some may not have had equal opportunities early in life, which means they may need additional time or targeted support to catch up with their peers, but they're able to do that.

Kamille Beye 28:30

So, if you were thinking about a program, what would you think? Maybe give you, like, your top three ideas a program for prisoners would need to include.

Magdalena Fellner 28:38

So, yeah, I think there are many important parts of a program. First of all, the university staff members need to be aware of the specific situation of incarcerated individuals, but also their social backgrounds, so what, what kind of knowledge or motivation they bring in the specific learning environment. So I think it's very important to be aware of that. So you kind of need to have staff members, university staff members that are not blind or ignore these facts, because actually, and this is not, I mean, it's not a good example, but, and very sad, but in Germany, many teachers who are at the university, they don't know if their students are in class rigid or not, so they cannot really consider their backgrounds, and so this is one, I think, one important thing, and there are many, of course, and, but if I have to pick, I think the second one would be to provide sufficient funding. So, this is also important. You need time for that. You need to have really good quality program. You need dedicated staff members and time, and of course, this goes along with money. So, you need funds. And then the third thing. Is I think it's also important to create some kind of network, so this is a basic function of universities that after release, for example, that they can still, that they have like an alumni network, they can still stay in touch and help each other out, for example, in relation to housing or things like that, or writing a severe or cover letter, so this is extremely important. So, even after release, to have some kind of network.

Kamille Beye 30:28

Thank you. And I was just tying that back to the ability to study, because it goes back to this idea of understanding the environment that the prisoner is in and where they come from, and what I was thinking about in regards to what you just mentioned about the teachers themselves aware of the learning environment, we talked, we would talk again about this idea of studying. We're assuming that the people who are taking these courses already know how to study, and if you're in a prison setting where they're every, every aspect of your day is pretty much controlled, those nuances become very important, and they signify whether a person has the resilience to go forward or not. And I just thought that was really interesting, and so I like this idea of talking about tiered citizenship. So we know that access to higher education is already uneven, and so if it's creating this tiered citizenship, sorry, tiered citizenship, where are some people structurally excluded from full participation in society if they're not getting their education while they're incarcerated.

Magdalena Fellner 31:35

So when certain groups are systemically excluded from higher education, their opportunities for social, economic, and political participation are also limited. This can result in a form of tiered citizenship, as you have mentioned, where access to rights and opportunities is unevenly distributed. As education plays a crucial role in enabling full participation in society, unequal access to it has broader implications for inclusion in a democratic society. Certain groups may become overrepresented in influential positions, allowing them to accumulate advantages and privileges that are then more easily passed on to members within their own social groups

Kamille Beye 32:23

interesting, so you are currently working with the UNESCO Institute for Lifelong Learning on prison education. How does a lifelong learner's perspective change how we think about incarcerated learners?

Magdalena Fellner 32:34

So adopting a lifelong learning perspective shifts the focus from short term interventions to continuous educational development throughout life. It recognizes that learning does not stop at the prison gate, either upon entry or release. This approach emphasizes flexibility and continuity, and the idea that education should be accessible at all stages of life, including during incarceration. It also reframes incarcerated individuals as learners with ongoing potential rather than defining them by their current situation. I think it's really important to understand that people can learn throughout their life,

Kamille Beye 33:12

In particular.

Magdalena Fellner 33:14

Yeah, of course, it is really important to understand that people can learn throughout their lives, which also means they can change, so I do believe in second chances. Research also consistently shows that many prisoners lack self-confidence. It is therefore extremely important that they have people around them who believe in them, rather than being humiliated, as may be the case in some institutions.

Kamille Beye 33:39

I have so many more questions, but I want to give some time to my colleagues, Adam and Stella. So, I'm going to turn it over to Stella. But, Dr. Fellner, I appreciate your time. I appreciate your answers, and I would love to continue this discussion with you. Thanks. Yes, Stella, please.

Stella Micheong Cheong 33:57

Oh thank you so much, Magdalena and Kamille, especially the people who don't know about prison education, I've already learned many things from you this conversation. So, my first question is about the second chance you pointed out, you mentioned about second chance, but we, I know, we often talk about second chance, but do our education system and society truly allow formerly incarcerated people, especially the young people, a second chance?

Magdalena Fellner 34:38

Yeah, so I think so. Part of the reason why university, prison, university programs are so little is because of the general, or the lack of support of the general public. So, there we probably need a kind of a shift of a mindset, so if we condemn somebody, say. Yeah, this person, for example, is not worth it investing in. Then there might be less second chances. So I think this is really about having a general attitude towards the complexity of humanity and our awareness that the socialization of a person really shapes the personality and the opportunities, so it is. I think it's much. We are much more complex than that, and we, and we know also from our research that people can change, so that has happened in the past, and it can happen in the future again. So, I think, and we, we really need to firmly believe that this is possible, and that second chance is definitely they are worth making an effort, like providing opportunities, definitely. Yes.

Stella Micheong Cheong 35:48

I completely agree with you. And then you also talk about the basic skill this incarcerated people, but while you're talking, I just, thought our education system, the prison education system focus more on employability or vocational skill, but what about the identity, human dignity, or the critical thinking? Do I need to consider about this this kind of capacity, cultural thinking and identity, and even the human dignity?

Magdalena Fellner 36:43

I think this would be an essential part or component of education, and this is also the reason why we need to look at how the programs are designed, because I'm interested in which programs to really enhance this component, or what you have mentioned, critical thinking, so what is needed for that to enhance critical thinking, for example, and what is useful. And then I think there are some programs already in place, they people who do wonderful work, actors that are very engaged, really, and these would be some good examples, but then in other places we don't have any of that, so that's also why I'm trying to look at the international level, not only into Germany, because there are such huge differences in university prison programs, or a prison education in general. So, for example, in some countries they already work with AI and with virtual reality, with internet and all the other technologies, they are very advanced, and in other places this would be unthinkable still. And, of course, when you have these tools and instruments available to you, and maybe this general support and attitude, then there are more possibilities to enhance critical thinking, for example, and in other places where these opportunities might be restricted, it might be more difficult to leverage this kind of skills.

Stella Micheong Cheong 38:08

So,I don't know, whether we're talking about the technology or artificial intelligence in this big world in this era, but a couple of weeks ago I watched a very interesting film called Horror H E R. In this film, a man, the main character named Theodore, he divorced, he divorced his wife, lover, and then he bought AI conversation tool. Don't feel like that, and yeah, but interestingly, this AI tool, the conversation tool called Samantha, Samantha,she really understand what his mind and his intention, and whatever. So, in that film, he ended up loving, falling in love with Attamanda, the AI conversational tool, but I think it's very understandable, and it's possible in the near future. Yeah, so while you're talking, it came to my mind. So, how might AI and digital technology reshape prison education in the next decade, and what ethical questions should we already be asking?

Magdalena Fellner 39:52

I wish I could see into the future. I think we don't actually know already how it will transform the general population, so it is a bit difficult to say it about the prison education, but I think they use it, for example, to simulate the reality outside prisons again, where people learn to navigate them through the reality, the free world, basically. So maybe this can help them also to create some meaningful relationships and connections again, so, but it means, so of course, that AI is not just like a person that accepts everything that you are saying and agrees with everything, but it's like a real person, basically, so it needs to also criticize some assumptions or talk back from time to time, you know, because right now when you use artificial intelligence, it's mostly like I agree, or this is great, amazing, and go on, so we also need to probably reshape AI or rethink it in order to help maybe people who have been isolated for a long time to create meaningful connections again in a way that are similar to the real world, yeah.

Stella Micheong Cheong 41:10

This is my last question. I really wonder about your personal view, personal personal thoughts, so what gives you hope? Do you have any hope about the prison education in the future?

Magdalena Fellner 41:31

Well, I know that in the United States they have a lot of university prison programs already. I think it's more than 400 actually, and they are running quite smoothly, and they show that they really have a significant impact. So, not all of them, but many of them reduce, for example, recidivism rate, as we said earlier, increased employability, also increased social skills, critical thinking, all of that. So, there are some very good examples, and I think we can really learn from these examples, and show, yeah, the impact it has not only on the life of the individuals, but also for the reintegration, and ultimately many formerly incarcerated people can get, can reoffend, basically, and yeah, this affects their family as well, and it is also costly for the state, of course. So, in, I would say, in some education is from an economic perspective. If you want to talk about economic perspectives as well, it pays off, definitely. But then I said, as I said, there are personal, there's a personal dimension, there are social reasons, there are not only economic reasons, but there are as well, and so we can really say that it's so meaningful and so important to do that, it pays off in so many different ways that it would be not a good idea to not do it, actually, I think it would be, yeah, we would miss a chance here,

Stella Micheong Cheong 43:05

I think we should be optimistic, always, yeah,Thank you so much for your brilliant response. So, now I'm gonna pass over to Adam.

Adam Peter Lang 43:20

Thank you very much, Magdalena, and I just echo what Stella just said. Always try to be optimistic in these challenging times. They are, we are living in challenging times. It's very interesting what you're saying about prison education, because in this populist world, new world order, or whatever we want to call it, it seems to me that some people are reaching to prisons, both politicians, but also public, as a simple panacea for wider problems. And what I think is very interesting, what you're telling us is that prisons, we don't really understand what prisons are for And I just wondered, I visited a category B Male Prison in London, not long ago, actually, as part of some other research I was doing, high-density Victorian building, lots of people locked up 23 hours a day, but I saw met the Education Department. I also went to the library, and I saw people coming out and using stuff. It was brilliant to see it, but it was very limited scope, but I wondered. I was talking to somebody there. There's something in this country, in the UK, where, by the way, in the UK, we lock up more and for longer people than anywhere else in Europe. And going back to what I was saying, you know, you're looking at what's going on in America, China, Russia, you name it, but I just wondered. There's something I was told about convict criminology, where people listen and try and talk to ex-convicts, or whatever. Do you have much of that experience of that in Germany and in Europe? Because that seems to me quite an interesting way. Into looking at issues?

Magdalena Fellner 45:02

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And before I answer this question, can I maybe get back to what you said earlier, because I think it's very important, and I really want to emphasize and highlight this as well, that I do not believe that education is a panacea, it cannot compensate for broader structural conditions that contribute to crime, so it is a crucial part of a more humane and effective approach to incarceration, but it does not, it's not a standalone solution. Education can expand opportunities and foster individual development. Its impact is inherently constrained when broader structural conditions remain unaddressed. So, even under optimal conditions, education alone cannot compensate for systemic inequalities or contribute to rehabilitation. So, against this backdrop, medical care, mental health support, and secure living conditions are not supplementary, but foundational. And without them, the benefits of education are significantly reduced. So that's what I really want to, yeah, I want to highlight that, because I don't think that education is a solution for everything, just to make that very clear. But about your question, convict criminology, which is also kind of a research strand, because actually many formerly incarcerated students continue their academic trajectory and career, and eventually end up becoming a professor, so not everyone, everybody is so open with that, but we know from many people who said that they have, they have lived experience, and then they tell their story, and I think we can learn a lot from them. So, how is it that they have changed? For example, what is it they have learned at the university? Why is it that they decided to continue their academic path or career? So this is a very, some very important questions as well, not only for, I mean, people who have been incarcerated, but for all of us. But in Germany, because you refer to Germany, we don't know how many, for example, people who are now working at university have been formally incarcerated? Because we don't talk about it that openly, as for example, in the United States, I think it's still a taboo. It's still something that people, you are stigmatized heavily, so also because they're not. I mean, of course, in Germany, there are not that many people who are incarcerated than in the United States, for example, in absolute and relative numbers, but yeah, so I think we don't know that many people who have been formally incarcerated and are like open with it, that but the ones that are there are some really great examples, so they have, for example, founded an NGO and help others in reintegrating into society. They are very engaged, they are very.. they, for example, go into schools and try to also mentor others and tell their stories, and what. and try to prevent others from going a similar, following a similar pathway into crime. So, I think the work they're doing is really amazing, and I'm really, yeah, I think it's so important. Yeah.

Adam Peter Lang 48:13

Thank you. And again, when I was looking into the prison library, actually, at some of the books that the prisoners were taking out, I was interested to see as this was a men's prison, men's health, lots of books about language, but also somebody was taking out the Shawshank Redemption to read, I found that quite profound, actually, in in the prison, but one of the issues in this country, and I'm sure elsewhere, it's about resourcing, and you mentioned about reoffending rates.

I think in the UK, 25% less people reoffend if they have some form of education, and a lot of our prisoners are almost illiterate. I met a charity that's doing work on literacy rates, and I think something like 25% or even more are more likely to secure employment when they come out. So, what would you say to sort of policy makers, politicians, or whatever about resourcing prisons? How, how could you scope that in such a way? Because I don't know where it's true in Germany, but certainly in the UK, prisons do lack resources for this vital element of their work.

Magdalena Fellner 49:29

Yeah, I think it's the same everywhere, actually. Unfortunately, yeah, so prisons are one of the institutions. First of all, we don't know a lot about what's going on there, it's like a black box, and second of all, they do not receive sufficient resources in many cases, and regarding your question, so what do they need? I think first of all, the people who work there, but maybe even outside, they need to believe that these people can also really learn. Learn like a lot within prisons, so even if they're illiterate, illiterate, it's possible for them. I mean, there are also many people who don't speak the same language as the majority, so there are many people with migration background, and yeah, that's the case. And I don't want to ignore that fact, but I think if they are motivated, first of all, they, they can really learn fastly if the opportunities are provided to them, and people, maybe they are shown what will happen when they know what they can achieve. Also, what kind of change it can make, if they understand that, then I think many people would be happy about this opportunity. So, maybe I can give an example here to really emphasize what I, what I want to say.So, I was talking to a person, a prison educator from Switzerland, actually, and she told me that she was working with this young student person who at the beginning was a little bit hesitant to participate in some kind of education, but the more she worked with him, the more she showed him what education can do, and in this case they were like having the scenario, what would you do when you go outside when you be released after prison, what will happen then? And he didn't really know what he would do after a release, so he was like, at the beginning, like, I don't know what, I have no opportunities, I cannot do anything, I have no hobbies, I don't have any talents, so there's nothing, basically, I don't have money at all, and then together they worked through a plan, kind of, because he was talented, he just didn't know about that, he was actually a very good, I think, singer and dancer, and this was also his great hobby, so he was, he loved it a lot, and that is really a success story, because when he got out, he applied at a university, and they admitted him as a student, and he became a student in dance, I think modern dancing, or something like that. And this was because both of them, within the prison, had worked on a plan and thought about what he could do after release, and also opened up new horizons, but ways of thinking for him, because he never thought about doing the next steps. What will happen when I do that? And then, for example, the beginning, he was like, "Will steal again, I will rob somebody, and then she was, but then he will end up back in prison, and that's like a never-ending story. And after some time, they managed to really go further and beyond that, and having, like, a long-term perspective, you know, developing that.

Adam Peter Lang 52:44

Thank you very much, Magdalena. Now we're coming to the end of the podcast here today. Is there anything that you wanted to share with us that we haven't actually asked you, or anything about your work, or your ongoing research, or anything like that you just wanted to mention at the end.

Magdalena Fellner 53:01

Okay, yeah, so I'm currently exploring the relationship between white collar crime and education, particularly crimes committed by individuals who are supposedly highly educated. This raises the question of why people with high levels of qualification and educational attainment still engage in criminal behavior, despite seemingly having the knowledge and resources to make different choices, it also leads me to ask, How education itself might be transformed in ways that not only transmit knowledge but also shape social behavior and strengthen ethical and critical reasoning. So, I think this is also what you're trying to do with your podcast, basically.

Adam Peter Lang 53:39

And in that research is that particularly to do with Austria and Germany

Magdalena Fellner 53:45

I'm looking at the international level. There's much more examples, and it's much richer. It's richer and more diverse.

Adam Peter Lang 53:52

Because I'm going to say to,our listeners If any of you want to get engaged, as actually Magdalena did, and contacted us about this whole issue that we're talking about today. Then we'd be delighted to hear from you, and I'm sure we can pass you on to Magdalena.

Magdalena Fellner 54:13

Thanks.

Adam Peter Lang 54:13

Thank you. So I'm going to come now to reflect a little bit on what we've heard, and only just a small snippet of it, but thank you so much. It's been very interesting. you said it - Prisons are profoundly misunderstood places, and I think people on the outside, we don't know about prison.We don't know the ins and outs of it, and we certainly don't know about education in prisons and how it works, and rehabilitation is a very important aspect of what prisons are for, and I think you've really focused in on that today, and broadening the scope as well to look at an area which does need attention. Academically, but also socially by all countries in this world in which we are living. So, thank you so much for that. I am going to close this episode now. I'm Adam, and thank you everybody for listening to Conversations for Citizenship. We do hope you have enjoyed this episode, and be sure to subscribe Conversations4Citizenship. And look for us on Twitter @c4c_ed (conversations4citizenship). A transcript of today’s conversation with Dr Magdalena Fellner can be found www. conversations4citizenship.com. This episode of Conversations for Citizenship was produced by me, Adam Lang, Kamille Bay in the States, and Stella Cheong in Korea, recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Thank you very much indeed for listening.

EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Conversations4Citizenship, host Dr. Kamille Beye speak with Dr. Magdalena Fellner about higher education in prison settings. Dr. Fellner challenges the notion that studyability is a fixed trait, illustrating how systemic, overlapping institutional barriers restrict incarcerated individuals' access to learning. She highlights the disparity in prison education—which often overemphasizes basic vocational training—and argues for university partnerships and lifelong learning approaches that foster critical thinking and human dignity. Dr. Fellner also introduces her latest international research on the relationship between higher education and white-collar crime.

EPISODE NOTES

This episode of Conversations4Citizenship features Dr. Magdalena Fellner, an educational researcher exploring the systemic barriers to higher education within the German prison system and internationally. Interviewed by Kamille Beye, Stella Micheong Cheong and Adam Peter Lang, Dr. Fellner refutes the idea that the academic capability to study is an inherent trait, arguing instead that it is socially and institutionally constructed. She critique-analyzes how gatekeepers limit incarcerated individuals to basic skills and vocational training rather than transformational higher education, pointing out that female prisoners face even fewer academic opportunities. Dr. Fellner advocates for a relational, lifelong learning approach supported by robust university-prison partnerships, which dramatically lower recidivism rates. However, she stresses that education is a human right, not a cure-all, and must coexist with fundamental structural support. Finally, she previews her new research examining why highly educated individuals commit white-collar crimes.

If you are curious about the Higher Education Institution-Prison Partnerships, check out her works below.

Fellner, M. (2025). Universities as elite allies. Disclosing global patterns of inequality in tertiary education across time. In Wimmer, C. & Rieder, T. (Eds.), Global Inequalities. Leiden: Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004733626_011
Fellner, M. & Dreisinger, B. (forthcoming). Education Not Incarceration Across Borders: Prison, University and Education Behind Bars. Special Issue, Tertiary Education and Management. https://link.springer.com/collections/afjgeefhde
This meta-study of the United States shows that individuals who participated in educational programmes were 43% less likely to reoffend than those who did not, and that every dollar spent on correctional education saves taxpayers five dollars in reincarceration costs. See Davis, Lois M., Jennifer L. Steele, Robert Bozick, Malcolm V. Williams, Susan Turner, Jeremy N. V. Miles, Jessica Saunders, and Paul S. Steinberg. How Effective Is Correctional Education, and Where Do We Go From Here? The Results of a Comprehensive Evaluation. RAND Corporation. 2014.