Episode 6 : Conversation with Dr. Richard Race

Jul 9
34 min read

Updated: Aug 2

Click the arrow (›) below to expand or collapse the transcript.

TRANSCRIPT

Stella Micheong Cheong00:00

Good day, listeners. Welcome to this episode of Conversations for Citizenship. This is a Stella Micheong Cheong from University College London. Our guest today is Dr. Richard Race, who is a visiting professor in Education at Sapienza University in Italy. For almost two decades, his research work has focused on multicultural education, anti-racism education, and citizenship education and he has advocated for the inclusion of such training as part of educators’ professional development at all levels of formal education. Today, we would like to focus more on teaching decolonising, particularly, how to deal with cultural diversity to apply decolonisation perspectives within the curriculum and educational practices. Leading today’s conversation with Dr. Race is Dr. Rowena Palacios, and I'll turn over to her now, Rowena.

Rowena Azada-Palacios01:12

Thank you very much, Stella, and good day. Dr. Race, Richard, if I may. I know you've been involved in a range of research projects related to citizenship education and multicultural education. But could you briefly tell us a little bit more about yourself and your how you came to this research interest?

Richard Race 01:36

Yes. And before I do, so can I thank colleagues for the invitation to be part of this podcast today, and in particular, Dr. Adam Lang, who has provided this opportunity for me? So yes, multiculturalism, multicultural education, and citizenship as well as citizenship education, my advocacy to begin with, is an acknowledgment of increased understanding over time, of the opportunities and challenges of multicultural education. And I think that can tie in with as well, an idea in England, that isn't dead, not by any means. I mean, I had a paper at a conference a few years ago, entitled “Is citizenship education dead in England?”, which sort of takes on Christian Joppke, his book titled “Is multiculturalism dead?” And my answer to that question is that a phenomenon or a concept can never die if you're talking about it. And that's what we're doing at the moment. So, my citizenship, and citizenship education, not only in England, but in the other four nations in the United Kingdom, as well as around the world is still very much alive, because we wouldn't be talking about it, you wouldn't be listening to it, or me or us today. So, in that sense, I think that's a positive but there's a pragmatism here, in relation to those opportunities and challenges. I think there are always opportunities, be they cultural, social, political, and educational. This I think relates to policy and education policy, because again, wherever you are in the world, citizenship is diverse. But I would argue that citizenship is integrationist as a concept. So, I would suggest that if we're going beyond the boundaries of citizenship, we need to be not only pragmatic but practical and applicable to our own environments. Good sociology, as David Mason used to argue, is social and situational. So, in that sense, again, if we can be situational and look at our own citizenship, or citizenship, since I would argue because it's a, as an advocate of multiculturalism, more to do with multicultural education, concepts of multiculturalism, again, we talk in plurality as rather than singularities. And I think with cultural diversity, and the fluidity of cultural diversity, this then applies to citizenships rather than the singular concept of citizenship. I mean, again, let me start the ball rolling by saying that cultural diversity is one of the biggest strengths we have in England and Britain because we are so culturally diverse, but how much of that diversity do we recognise? And in England, the citizenship debate moved into diversity. And then diversity has got lost politically in all sorts of ways and within the United Kingdom, and with Brexit, that is only complicating the issue. Now, citizenship has always been complicated, and it's always been fascinating and interesting as a professional practitioner, but it seems to have gone off the sort of teaching agenda, which might be sort of debatable with colleagues and the listeners who are advocates of citizenship and teaching it and thinking about it and carrying out research on it. But how then is all of that applied to what's going on out there in the streets, wherever we are in the schools wherever we are, and within nations wherever we are, because citizenship went through a period of global citizenship, where you would generalise around United Nations policy documents, and we will be going towards the promised land of anti-racism and anti-discrimination, which again, we seem to be going backward towards concepts such as integration and assimilation, which are incredibly dangerous. Historically, if you look back through time, it's not just the individual colonial story that we'll come to in a minute, there are colonial stories from around the world. But in that sense, part of the colonial stories about assimilation, when you can lose your identity, if you move from country A to Country B, I think to be very dangerous, be very dangerous socially, would be very dangerous culturally. But again, just to repeat my advocacy, which I'd imagine it's more complicated, the more I think about it, is an advocacy of the opportunities and challenges of multiculturalism, because it's not applicable everywhere, if you've watched the World Cup in Qatar, all of the issues surrounding that tournament, are in themselves very interesting, because of course, where you need to start is the culture of the Qataris, including their faith, including their politics. And in that sense, you might not agree with them. But again, you have to, you know, you have to have at least a respect of why they're there. And in that sense, I think that's why you can be critical of multiculturalism because it's not applicable everywhere in the world. So that has to, at the very least be acknowledged. But then there are opportunities, and the opportunities are increasing understandings of our citizenship, and our cultural diversity, but also the opportunities to understand that multi, which of course, is many, interpret all the interculturalists who are listening means between. So, in that sense, it might be semantic, but it's an interesting semantic discussion.

Rowena Azada-Palacios07:06

Thank you so much, Richard. And your answer touched a little bit on the way that the kinds of conversations that we've been having about culture and education have changed over time. You mentioned multiculturalism, you mentioned diversity, you mentioned anti-racism. And one idea that seems to be gaining a lot of traction recently is the idea of decoloniality. Can you say a little bit more about that? What do you understand by coloniality? What does this have to do with schools and higher education?

Richard Race 07:40

That's a very important question. I think before you get to decolonizing. You have to start with colonising and you have to have an understanding of what the term colonising is. Rowena if I may, may be so brave. Can I ask you a question? (Yes, please do). In relation to English colonising. In your mind, what was the first country that England colonized? Have a guess.

Rowena Azada-Palacios08:03

Ireland? I'm just guessing Wales.

Richard Race 08:07

That's right. On your second attempt, it was Wales in the 13th century. So, for 800 years, there's a colonial story before we get to today, before we get to decolonising, before we get to the terrifying recolonizing, which is going on with Russia in Ukraine at the moment. But if we go back to that Wales was the first country that England colonized, when the United Kingdom of Great Britain was created in the early 18th century, it was the Kingdom of England and Wales. So, then Scotland joins that entity, then Ireland joins the entity, then Ireland leaves in the 20th century in 1921, which is the first case of partition and that's if your teaching partition concerning India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh would be your context. It's a bit like the Prevent policy, which Adam would know a lot about. When I teach Prevent, I would look to Northern Ireland and it's an interesting example because I'm 53 so I can still remember the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I was born in 1969 and the film that Kenneth Branagh directed last year was shown about that period of time. And that's a very interesting example. Not only because it contextualises, the anti radicalised Asian policy of Prevent in England, but it also gives an example pre-9/11 of terrorism. But if we go back to partition, again, that's part of the English colonial story that is very rarely taught in schools. We teach Windrush, one fact about partition in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, over a million people mean that's a conservative estimate were killed in the movements between India and the new country of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Now, why isn't that taught in more schools to in many respects, contextualise Windrush, let alone Ireland? And again, with in relation to the Irish story, you know, we're considering the reunification of Ireland, there is that possibility in the years to come you think of Scottish nationalism and Nicola Sturgeon and what the Scots are doing. The Welsh is an interesting example as well because they have their own national curriculum. They're a bilingual country, and they introduced an anti-racism policy across the nation, which was an amazing policy when considering what's not going on in England in July 2022. And then that led to the new national curriculum that was introduced in September 2022. The English have a land border with a nation that is bilingual. And yet you think of modern foreign languages in England, how few languages are actually taught in state schools in England. And I would be as bold, so bold as to say that that is a colonial legacy. Again, we rely on England I've had the pleasure in my 25-year career in higher education, teaching abroad in Greece, in Holland, taught in the Far East as well, and I've just come back from Rome. And it's all in English. Oh, look, the students can talk English and they can translate for those that can't isn't that fantastic? Now, why shouldn't I be able to speak Italian fluently to go and teach at Sapienza to an Italian class? And in many respects, colonialism allows me to get away with it. But it's a lazy sort of philosophy for an Englishman because I think we've got to work harder in relation to languages and multilingualism because of course, the cousin of multiculturalism is multilingualism in the sense that it's a recognition of languages. But if we go back to colonialism, there's an interesting point here in the sense that England doesn't hold a monopoly over colonialism. If you think of South America, Argentina in the World Cup final, and again, colonised country, and their languages, Spanish, Brazil, further up, were colonised by the Portuguese. So, in that sense, it's not just England, Spain and Portugal. It's France and Germany. If you go around the world, you could have Russia, you could have China, and you could have other nations around the world that have their own colonising stories. So, in that sense, before we even get to decolonising, which is, again, I would define it as addressing issues of colonisation, but also transforming systems so that cultural diversity is recognised within a country. And the reason why there's opposition to that is political. Why are we talking about race, when race has been scientifically disproven in the 1950s and 1960s? And the reason why we're talking about race is that it's political. So, in that sense, the decolonising movement has a political barrier to overcome, it's happening, and it's happening slowly. And as a professional practitioner decolonising, I think opens subjects like citizenship, history and geography, and literature. Depending upon what country you're in. Notice, I didn't say English literature, because again, you tend to find that even with translations, you can get fantastic literature from all over the world. In that sense, this is what is always confused me. I'm a Londoner born and bred, and I live in a multicultural city. And the reason why I'm interested in multiculturalism is my family tree, which goes all over the world, it goes to France, and it goes to the States, I can trace my family lineage back to Portugal via Madagascar into India, and my grandfather was a military policeman in the empire. So again, my family can tell a very different story to the indigenous populations that had to move sort of in the Indian subcontinent but move abroad as well to places like Africa, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, two-thirds of my family moved to Australia and a third of my family moved to Wembley in North London. Now, if you look at me, you know, I look whiter than white. So, you know, and if you listen to me, I probably sound like the stereotypical Englishman. If you look at my uncle, he's got very dark skin. And I can only imagine that my father, his brothers, and my auntie went through incredible racism in North London during the late 1940s and 1950s. Because of their appearance. So, in that sense, I think we've all got a story to tell. It's the “Who do you think you are?” philosophy for anybody that has watched that programme on the BBC. Our lineage goes back, and it's fascinating. And one exercise that I use in my multiculturalism and citizenship classes is that get students to talk about their identities, plural. You might think that that's easier in London than nationwide but my own example, I think, proves otherwise. And again, I think teaching is an opportunity at any level, from nursery schools right through to adult learning and lifelong learning. It's an opportunity to not only look at our own identities but to reflect upon them as well. And that's what makes education interesting, isn't it? They can't just have a boring history of 1066, 1314, 1415, 1850, and 1914. It sounds like a train timetable, doesn't it? But it's dates of glorious defeats and glorious victories from an English context. And other countries around the world, I'm sure teach history in a similar way. And then, of course, that leads to our citizenship, which isn't a mono-cultural history, or a monocultural identity. Surely, our cultural diversity allows us that breadth, but then, I guess, politically it doesn't. And then that controls programmes of study in schools, and what we can teach and what we can't teach. My final point on this is that programmes of study in England are key stages three and four. And this is the research I carried out for multiculturalism and education 10 years ago, which was culturally diverse. And in that sense, it's how much of that teachers are actually taught, and how much confidence a teacher has at any level, to go into a classroom to teach something like Black History Month.

Rowena Azada-Palacios16:03

Thank you so much, Richard, you mentioned the gaps in the curriculum. But you also seem to be saying that even if those gaps were to be filled, there's another barrier, which is, many teachers simply don't feel equipped to facilitate discussions in the classroom about these topics. So, what kind of preparation do you think teachers should have that might help them talk about these topics in the classroom and think about them with their pupils?

Richard Race 16:31

If you're thinking about teacher training and continuing professional development, I think you're heading in the right direction. But you're currently listening to somebody white middle-class male, who for three to four years, at the institution I used to work in, I gave the one-hour lecture to the secondary school teacher trainees, and all of the white teacher trainers, my colleagues were sitting next to me was giving the one hour in the one-year teacher training programme on race and education. So again, you could have that basically, as an undergraduate degree, you could have three years of that, and the students got an hour. So, you know, I could talk about race, racism, structural racism, institutional racism, multiculturalism, citizenship, and that's it, that's 45 minutes. And I tend to be an interactive practitioner with my audience. So, I mean, the most interesting thing for me was that I just gave them the information. And that started off debates in the room. And they were very interesting debates as well. And it's such a shame that teacher trainees don't get more of that in their one year. I mean, I've always thought the government tried to halve the time from a year to six months. But I would suggest that you need to double teacher training to give practitioners more time in the classroom, but also to give them more theoretical and conceptual opportunities to talk about citizenship, let alone race and racism, and anti-racism. You think about when teachers who are actually qualified arrive. You think about teaching assistants and how much teacher training they get now in English schools. And then you think about continuing professional development. And one good story I can give to you was that in October this year, I went, I was invited to observe teacher training in a North London secondary school, whereby five secondary schools came together. And my colleague, Professor Paul Miller talks about racism. And he talked about racism in the class. And then we had the wonderful Baroness Floella Benjamin, who came and almost I mean, her speech was motivational in the sense that she talks about her life, she grew up, she was born in Barbados, she came to the United Kingdom, she was an actress. For those of you the listeners that are old enough, they will remember the widow of Benjamin from Play School, but she's a hell of a lot more than that. And she had a career in acting as well. And she talks about the obstacles she faced because she was a black female, but she's now in the House of Lords. And she gives a lot of these talks and what the first word that comes to mind with Baroness Benjamin is well, she was she you know, she held the audience in, she sang at the end, she was educational. I think that's the best way of describing her. And I always remember the cue that was there as almost 100 people, she gave the time to talk to them after the speech. And that was motivational, but that was also continuing professional development. And it was pleasing to see that in the assembly hall of the school that there must have been at least 250-300 people there. So that's the movement in the right direction, the head teachers were there. And that, again, is important because they were committing to the day and the material. So, in that sense, the step after that is to go beyond virtual training packages, that university lecturers in England now generally have, where there's no feedback, there's no face-to-face, you can't talk about any issues. You can get 90% of the questions right and print out the certificate. But that's not the best teacher training, we need to return back to that face-to-face model where we can sit in groups and talk about issues such as delivering citizenship, you know, methods and theories within citizenship that go in England beyond Bernard Crick, David Blunkett, Hugh Starkey and then look at, you know, domestic research, like the Ofsted report, which my goodness is almost 10 years old on citizenship in England, but also looking at Wales, looking at Scotland, making it International, you know, different continents, how they perceive citizenship, it needs, the scope needs to broaden. And I think that applies to all sorts of things like decolonising pedagogy, anti-racism, and anti-discrimination, there are opportunities here, we need to make the time for our professional practitioners. So, they have an increased understanding of their audiences, which continue to change, you need to be continually developed. Just one very quick anecdote. One of my colleagues in Rome asked me why I wanted to observe her classes, which were in Italian. And I said to her, you must be joking, this is an opportunity for professional development. I'm not only looking at you and your delivery, but I'm looking at them. And I'm learning as much as I would do, teaching by just observing. And I think teachers need to do more of that they need to observe their colleagues. It builds trust, it builds knowledge, and it makes an individual a better professional practitioner.

Rowena Azada-Palacios21:33

You talked about some of the issues that you think teachers should have more opportunities to discuss amongst themselves in their training. But you also mentioned a little bit earlier about some of the political barriers that we all face. And when it comes particularly to the issue of race, there seems to be a lot of pushback from the public, not to mention from people in politics themselves. And there seems to be some kind of resistance towards talking more openly about issues of race and racism. Can you say something about that?

Richard Race 22:08

Happily. And we start off with the blindingly obvious fact that the British government and I use the term loosely, the British government has the most culturally diverse cabinet in its history. Look at the prime minister, look at his ethnic origins. His deputy has European origins, Dominic Raab, then you look at people like Suella Braverman, the Home Secretary, and her ethnic origins can be, Kemi Badenoch has African heritage. And it goes on. Kwasi Kwarteng, who was chancellor in the Liz Truss government, and there are other examples I can give to you. And yet, their politics holds them back over their true views on race and ethnicity. And it's a political barrier because they're in a political party, where they're not allowed to talk about their own feelings. And I would suggest, I would speculate that their own individual feelings are a lot different from the political realities that they have to work within. And that, to me is an interesting contradiction that needs to be taught. That's a visible example you can use in your teaching. You look at the prime minister, Sunak, and he has Indian heritage, and his wife has Indian heritage, I'm more interested actually, in Sunak’s parents, but also their parents, and where they've come from, because of course, we go back to partition and what was Sunak’s story first or second generation, in relation to partition? Were his family here, or were they on the Indian subcontinent, because, of course, his wife's family are in India. And as an intellectual, let alone an academic, I'm interested in these stories. But these stories are not audible. It's about stories. And of course, I think we're coming to critical race theory very shortly. And Kemi Badenoch is notorious for standing up in the House of Commons, and saying that this is not applicable to our schools, whether she believes in critical race theory, whether she understands what it is, which in itself is an interesting question. I would give her the benefit of the doubt. I think she understands she's intelligent enough and educated enough, but politically, she can't talk about these things, because of the political party she's involved with and the ideology behind those ideas.

Rowena Azada-Palacios24:23

Would you say something about that then because it's possible that many of our listeners just have a very vague notion of what Critical Race Theory is? Can you help us maybe work through the noise and come to a better understanding, including why are so many people resistant to it?

Richard Race 24:41

Critical Race Theory, my understanding is both a theory and a method. Critical Race Theory originates its context is the civil rights movement in the United States of America, in the 1960s, the 1950s, sorry, and in the 1960s. Its method basically originated from black lawyers. In the United States of America, and again, actually, black Americans were only given the vote in 1965. So, this was the time of critical race theory. And its method was one of telling stories. But that's where critical race theory began, it was basically giving black American lawyers an opportunity to tell their stories. So basically, it was autobiographical. And I would suggest that critical race theory is open to everybody. It's open to black, mixed race, and Asian, however, you define yourself as well as white people because it gives you an opportunity to actually talk. So that's where the method of critical race theory comes from. The theory itself, of course, goes back to a race. And again, it's a challenge to political hegemony, because that's the reason why we're talking about race today is due to politics, the politics not only of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson but others, of Bolsonaro in Brazil and other global examples around the world recent examples over the last 10 years. The C is important as well, that critical nature, it's been critical of your own store is not only of, you know, the hegemony that you've got to challenge, the politics that you've got to challenge CRT for me is about voices. It's about expressing those voices. And it's, of course, it's about being critical of structures that hinder those voices being heard. And then you can develop that out. I mean, I've just mentioned woke as well, woke is an interesting discussion that, you know, the cultural wars around, woke, and it's very interesting how people, I think, use the term not fully understanding that it's basically if you're woke, you have an understanding of anti-racism and anti-discrimination, and the ideas behind not just race, but also discrimination against sexuality, ageism, disability, and many other issues as well. So, in that sense, I am woke, you know, fair enough, if that's how you want to use it, but it's disturbing how it's used by politicians, in countries around the world, and thrown around in the popular media as well. But tabloid media, it's a word that I don't think people fully understand or appreciate or where it comes from. It's just a term that sort of hides a lot. Because people don't have an understanding or increased understanding of it. And I think, Rowena, this answers your question about CRT (Critical Racism Theory), in the sense that I don't think a lot of people actually understand where it comes from, and how it can be used by everybody, everybody here, every listener to this podcast as a way of not only criticising systems but increasing understandings of your own stories and reflecting upon where you've come from the racism and the discrimination that you faced. And that applies to everyone. So, in that sense, I think that's not only an academic tool, but of course, it's been used politically to dare I say, shut people up, which again, is not what it was intended to do. And let me just repeat one last thing about CRT, it can be applied by anyone. It's not just black lawyers, in the 1950s, in the 1960s, in the United States of America, or academics in 2022. It can be used as a method by everyone. And it has been used by all communities to increase understanding of their own situations and provide recommendations for possible solutions.

Rowena Azada-Palacios28:23

Thank you for that. And I think just to tie together what you said just now in a little bit earlier, I think it becomes clear to me why you think that it's so important to have face-to-face discussions about it because you can't do storytelling through some packaged module, it has to be through the space where people have the opportunity to talk openly with each other.

Richard Race 28:45

Just for the listeners, I've just shown Robin DiAngelo, his book that she published last year, which was on white fragility, which is entitled Nice Racism, how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm. Now, I would recommend this book if you've not looked at it. And there's a lot going on in this book. The one thing that I will mention at the back of the book, which proves that I've read more than the first chapter, is questions for teachers that they can use in professional practice. So, in that sense, that's a very interesting conclusion to this book. And I think this highlights Robin DiAngelo’s method in how she delivers anti-racism training to professional practitioners, not just in education, but I think in a wide variety of environments. And I think that is important in the sense that, again, if we are going to get our professional practitioners in private, public, and voluntary sectors to sit down and have an increased understanding of an issue like this, it's the same as citizenship as well. I think the method is still important. But in that sense, again, this is a book not only about racism and critical race theory, but it's also a book about the method and not the method of CRT, but how you can actually do it. How you can sit down and say, right, we're going to talk about this topic. And what DiAngelo does is that she tends to send the black, mixed race nation colleagues out and Latinx colleagues out of the class. And then she just got white colleagues there. And that's a debatable method. Because I think you should be inclusive, you should have everybody there. But I understand why she does that. Because what she argues is that the people, she sends out have to live this daily, not just in their professional lives, but in their personal lives as well, because of structural and institutional racism. So, in that sense, it's providing environment, safe environments, that don't frighten the white teachers. But in that sense, I think you do have to create environments, which are trusting and not threatening this material can be wrongly perceived. And I think there are people out there that are quite nervous about talking about these issues, you know, we've got, we've got white colleagues that still use the term coloured rather than black. And they're frightened to use the term black because they think it's offensive. And in that sense, it can be bad elementary, I've got black mixed-race colleagues in the United Kingdom that are critical of my professional practice when I teach festival dates, and they say, Richard, why are you doing this? Why are you teaching Chinese New Year, Ramadan, Eid, Diwali, and Christmas Day? And I say I'm teaching these because the majority of students and if I was teaching staff, this don't know, these dates. And this is general knowledge, we need to teach more than festival dates because we need to have an understanding of our students and our colleagues’ citizenship, as well as their cultural diversity as well as their faith. Having that multifaith understanding, and knowing when Eid falls in 2023. Again, have a look. Because if you have Muslim students in front of you, you need to know those days. And then you need to know more about Islam and have a wider understanding of why people will fast during that time and fast, you know, during the year. It's about increased understanding that sitting people down is giving them the knowledge, which of course they can't get in a year in England. And that's why I am a passionate advocate of CPD, continuing professional development. Because that's an opportunity to do this. It's not just about cultural knowledge. It's about topping up if you like, on all types of knowledge.

Rowena Azada-Palacios32:13

Thank you. Thank you so much, Richard. I'm going to bring my colleagues in now, Adam and Kamille are also here in the room with us. Would either of you like to ask questions for Richard? Adam?

Adam Peter Lang 32:28

Yes, thank you, Richard, you've covered so much ground in such a short space of time. One of the things that we really look at in this podcast is it's a conversation. And that's exactly what we're having. And it's about what you're talking about people's stories, which is trying to give the opportunity to tell those. The other thing we're really looking at is has education, has citizenship education changed as a result of recent dynamics, you know, the pandemic, particularly, but also, is there some sort of geopolitical dynamics that are taking place as well? Is there some sort of realignment? Is there some rethinking that we ought to be engaged in as citizenship sort of educators? Do you think moving forward? Or is it much as you've described so far, just wondering if you think there are other aspects that maybe we ought to be considering.

Richard Race 33:15

Thanks, Adam. I think in relation to COVID, I think the jury's still out in the sense that we're not out of COVID. Yet, the scientists have advised us that it's coming back. And if you look closely, I mean, this might become dated. But I will say this, we almost have a flu pandemic in the country at the moment, we've got more. And in that sense, I think there are more hospital entries for flu than there are for COVID in December 2022. I'm not sure how COVID has affected citizenship and sort of cultural diversity and how it's taught and how it's delivered. But I think what I can talk about is the politics of citizenship. And in that sense, I don't think a lot has changed. And again, I'll go back, I did mention integration. And I'll just talk briefly about that. I believe that citizenship is an integrationist concept, meaning that the state has created the conditions in England, for example, a citizenship test for those that are trying to gain citizenship. Brexit is the second issue because I think that has changed citizenship. And not only because the passport has changed, and their passport for Britain and the United Kingdom, and the European Union has now changed. I mean, again, it hasn't changed my what it what am I talking about? Of course, it has changed my trips to Italy, in the sense that it's only taken me perhaps 50 more minutes to get through Gatwick and Rome airport. But on the other hand, sort of my payment in tax has changed substantially from 2019 to 2022. Because of the economic changes that Brexit has introduced, how I start to teach this is what is Britain in December 2022. And I think that it's almost like an Oxford entry examination question because there are right answers to it. But I think it has changed because of Brexit. And not only how we, sorry to be colonial again and for the final time, but how we as Brits perceive ourselves. But then again, you've got to remember that if you go back to colonising and how Great Britain was created, it was created with four countries before you even get to Africa, Asia, the Americas, and other parts of the world as well. So, in that sense, I think that's a very difficult question to ask in December 2022, fundamental British values (FBV) which had been in on the curriculum since 2014-2015. It is a political attempt. And you remember that it was a coalition government in the United Kingdom that introduced fundamental British values, is an attempt to try and solidify that FBV came in before Brexit, which in itself is interesting. But then again, perhaps that's another integrationist education policy. I mean, I've argued that the national curriculum in England was the Brexit policy, 30 years before Brexit. And I think that gives an idea and what I mean by integration is for the listeners, integration is a two-way process territory, dude argues whereby the state comes forward to the individual or the community. And theoretically, they're supposed to meet in the middle. So, in that sense, what I mean by that is that the state will create a national curriculum, and student’s parents will come forward and be taught within that framework will be taught within schools. I mean, it's very interesting to read that home education, however, defined affects between one and two in 10 of the population. Now, I think that's a little bit deceptive because I think that involves all extracurricular activities. If you've got a son or a daughter, and you want music lessons beyond school, that's defined as home education. But I argued over 10 years ago now, if that is true, and one in 10 of all students are being home-educated, and Adam, that might be that COVID.

Adam Peter Lang 36:52

Some young people have dropped out of education. I don't know where they're gone. I mean, we're talking very much about England. I know at the moment, and many of our listeners are international. But yes, obviously, that's a very good example.

Richard Race 37:08

And the Department for Education in London stopped collating the COVID figures of students, not in schools, which was worrying in April 2022. So, in that sense, the DfE in London is not collating these figures at the moment, which is worrying, because it seems to me that more students are not in school, because of COVID. And it's aftereffects. I'm not going to be dramatic and call them a lost generation. But it is worrying that I think that the numbers have increased. And I think the DfE have to get back out there and find them, and not necessarily force them back into schools, but at least have an idea of what's going on. Thanks. Thank you.

Kamille Beye 37:46

It was a really wonderful presentation. Thank you so much. I want to ask you a question for teachers generally who are in the minority I mean, sorry, in majority communities where they're the minority, teaching topics about race or religion, I'm thinking about the US particularly where CRT is a hot topic, and CRT is not taught in lower elementary, high school, any of that stuff. But we have these very contentious school boards that argue about what can be taught in class. And so, the idea of talking about the festival holidays for a Muslim teacher in the US to talk about Ramadan is very difficult, yet, schools are closed for Jewish holidays. So, you see discrimination right in your face. And I'm just curious, what advice do you give to lecturers who are in these situations where just their presence alone brings up the controversy of possibly teaching history or teaching a cultural environment that's different than what I guess the majority is?

Richard Race 38:46

Thanks, Kamille. For that very interesting question. You're asking me the $64 billion question, I think, and how we could do this. I think this is an opportunity rather than a challenge or the opposite of an opportunity. I think there's an understanding here of the politics of classroom delivery. It's fascinating that all of the advocates, all of the peak, authors of multicultural education come from the USA, James Banks, Sonya Naito, Gloria Ladson, Billings, and others. And that's even before you get to anti-racism and brilliant academics in the States that have written about this, and it's very applicable today, I think, if I was advocating not only for colleagues in the United States, thinking of Canada and their multicultural day, but then I think that that's almost an unfair comparison, because of the different cultures and the different histories of the two nations. And I think there's a demographic issue here with the USA and Canada as well. Two enormous countries, but two very different sorts of political backgrounds. Even within political constraints, you can still deliver multicultural practices, even though as you say correctly, Kamille, school boards are perhaps against this professional practice again, that's where I think festival dates, but more understandings come into that equation. Some faiths seem to get more priority than others. There are many interesting issues in the USA. I think one of the more interesting ones is how the United States has dealt with it educationally. They've dealt with Latinos populations and the movements not only from Mexico, but Central and South America, up into the southern states, but also into the United States of America, I think a quarter to a third of the population of the United States of America has first, second, third generations, links to Central and South America. And in that sense, that's fascinating, and how does the education system change and adapt to that demographic movement? Now, you could argue that it hasn't. And you're still delivering a history that starts in 1776, rather than goes back through the, you know, tens of thousands of years of indigenous populations and tribes in the United States of America. And whether that history is actually taught you would hope it would be! And more schools would be teaching that. But what about in the southern states, you know, the West Coast and all over the country? Are they teaching stories relating to those migratory movements in colonising and decolonising, the United States being taught? And so, there are very interesting historical stories within the states, let alone within the country. So, I think in answer to your question, it's a difficult question to address. I think, as professional practitioners, we need to address it, because of the cultural diversity that faces, whether we can deliver professional practice that is applicable to our audiences, I think we need to try, I think we need to become political in a way that we need to lobby politicians, to change curricula. To get more cultural diversity into our classes, we need to get our teachers trained in these methods, these theories that go beyond the national story. And we need to make it more international, we need to make it more relevant and applicable to our audiences. But it goes back to my original point that we need to teach our teachers first the knowledge, the general knowledge, and the dates, then we get to the more substantial material. And of course, one of the things that we should never forget is our own student voices. And in that sense, as professional practitioners, I've always felt that maybe we over-intellectualize this, what we should do is we should give our students more opportunities to talk, I've always felt that my job as a teacher, at whatever level is to just provide that forum for the student to speak. And I will listen. And I will learn as much from them as they will from me. So, I think it's using the blindingly obvious resource, which is in front of you. And if you can do that and integrate it into and I don't mean integrating in a bad way, integrating in a more positive way back into programmes of study back into assessment tests, it will make professional practice more enjoyable. And it will make it also more relevant for students, they won't be bunking off and walking away because they're bored. You know, because they're learning about stuff that is not applicable to them, get them black authors, get Tony Morrison, you know, insert into the equation in the United States of America as one black author, that the whole country should be reading, rather than Hemingway or Goldfield, Dickens, and Shakespeare, and there's nothing wrong with Shakespeare or Dickens. But again, it's got to be part of a more multicultural literature. If you're learning that subject, I'm sure American schools do have culturally diverse curriculums. But then it goes back to the fact that how well trained are teachers to deliver it? How confident are they to talk about issues like anti-racism and anti-discrimination, talking about woke without the head teacher coming and saying, you can't talk about that. And if that's the case, one issue in England is teaching about the images of the Prophet Muhammad, and the extreme examples of what's happened to teachers that have done that, and perhaps they have not been taught how to do it. I've talked to Muslim students about that. They've educated me on how to do it. And I think one of the most important things there is that you don't show the images. And I think that that was where the controversy originated from. If you talk about it in a factual way, if you give Muslim students and you informed parents the opportunity not to be in the class, because again, in England, parents have had the right to withdraw their children from classrooms since 1944, which was based on religion, but I think ethically that can be broadened out to other controversial subjects, then you can teach that. But you've got to be trained on how to do it. Theory, the method, doesn't show the images. If the students don't want to be there, if the parents don't want the students to be there, respect that, then you can move forward.

Rowena Azada-Palacios45:14

Thank you. I think Stella has a question as well.

Stella Micheong Cheong45:16

I wonder about your thought because this conversation focused more on super-diversity societies like the UK, US and France. But how about the other part such as South Korea, where it is an ethnically homogeneous country, and some countries still establish multiculturalism or multicultural initiatives? or policy in the initial stage. So, in terms of implementing multicultural elements into the curriculum, how can we implement multiculturalism or multicultural initiatives into the practice in schools in those countries where multiculturalism is slowly developing or not yet developed?

Richard Race 46:11

Or can never be developed? I'll come back to that in a minute. Let's talk about Korea. I've had the privilege of teaching students from South Korea, who call themselves Koreans. So, in that sense, for me, there's a bit of an issue there, in the sense that regardless of what you think about North Korea, this is a fascinating story there about how the country was divided through colonial influence. And in that sense, there's a story that I need to be educated in. But I didn't press the students to say, are you from the South or the North? Because of course, there's a geographical and political division there. So, in that sense, where does multiculturalism fit in for Koreans, if you have that political border, two different countries, two very different political ideologies, based around them, a fascinating story that I would like my students to educate me in, if I don't have the time to actually find out about that myself. That's where multiculturalism can work and not work. If you take a country like Afghanistan, and you take the issue of girls being removed from schools at about 12, if you look at its history, goes back hundreds of years. Afghanistan is a country of tribes. So how the entity of the country has been formed, is an interesting debate. Because does it work? The Russians, the Americans, and the UN have all tried to keep Afghanistan together as a country and as a political entity. And yet, it is still a country of tribes and regions. So, does that fit onto the Global Map? Are we failing in one way to understand Afghani multiculturalism based on that tribal culture or those tribal cultures? There is a political entity of Afghanistan, it's there, it's on the map. But does it work? And it seems to me that it's failed to work over the years. I mean, I give an anecdotal story about Afghanistan, and I give the wonderful reference to the film, Rambo 3, where Sylvester Stallone is fighting with the Taliban, against Russia. Now, if you move forward 20 years, that becomes very complicated, because of course, the Taliban is an important sort of system in that region. But then you have more specific Muslim ideologies, and theories, about different laws about all sorts of issues. And we come back to that education example of should Afghani girls stay in school beyond 12. Now, within multicultural systems, they would be, however, at least have to acknowledge that that system is there for that. Now, whether we agree or disagree, of course, is the debate. And again, as a professional practitioner, it is not for me to give my own views about that. But if I'm going to talk about that in a classroom, I've got to talk to my students, all of them. And if I didn't deem it sensitive, then I've got to give them the option of being in the room or not, as I said before, and I think drawing that ethical boundary around the controversial subjects that affects Afghani citizenship, then, students have the decision to either stay or not be there. But again, we don't want to upset parents who might be offended with that type of conversation. So, we have to respect them as well. I would suggest that as a concept and remember, my advocacy is about multicultural education, not the concept of multiculturalism, because I would suggest that it is not applicable in some countries around the world because essentially, it's a white Anglo masculine liberal concept, and that's the debate people would agree with that some people would disagree and I don't think is applicable because cultures are different cultures are complex. And that's where the interesting debates begin with caveats over the sensitivity of some of the material that you could end up talking about. If the students instigate that conversation, you still got to be careful in that sense, because you're not there to give your own views. It is up to them to talk, to process to reflect, to be critical if they need to be. On the other hand, their ideas, their ideologies, might not allow them to engage in that type of debate. So, you have to be careful.

Stella Micheong Cheong50:36

Thank you so much for your generosity in giving your time to us today. Now, we are closing this episode and pass over to Adam.

Adam Peter Lang 50:47

Well, thank you very much indeed, Richard that's generously giving your time to us today. Your work is very timely and what you've been talking about, not just for our podcast, but for the world in which we live at the moment, coming to the end of the year. I think it has inspired us and all our listeners to work harder at making sure our educational spaces are much more sensitive to the needs of diverse communities and particularly to young people in schools. So now it's time to close this episode. This has been another episode of our conversations for citizenship. Thank you all listeners out there for listening. We hope you have enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe to the Conversations for Citizenship podcast and we're getting lots of people corresponding from all over the world. And look for us on Twitter. Our handle is @c4c_ed. A transcript of today's conversation with Dr. Richard Race will be available at conversations for citizenship. Our next conversation will be Dr Jordi Collet Sabé, who's an associate professor at the Department of Education, the University of Vic in Barcelona, Spain. This episode of Conversations for Citizenship was produced by me, Adam Peter Lang, Kamille Beye, and Rowena Palacios, recorded and sound mixed by Dain Jeong. And, of course without we mustn't forget Stella Cheong who's the architect of our great podcast. So, thank you all very much for listening, and take good care.

EPISODE SUMMARY

In the 6th episode of Conversations4Citizenship, join us as we delve into the fascinating topic of decolonising curriculum with Dr. Richard Race from Sapienza University. Drawing on his extensive personal histories, teaching expertise, and research experiences, he enlightens us about the concept of decolonising curriculum in the age of multiculturalism and the unique challenges and exciting opportunities it presents in the context of higher education institutions.

EPISODE NOTES

Today's guest is Dr. Richard Race, visiting professor in education at Sapienza University in Italy. Richard has two decades worth of expertise in multicultural education, anti-racism education, and citizenship education, and has published extensively on this topic. He's the author of "Multiculturalism and Education" and "Integration and Education Policy Making", both published by Palgrave Macmillan. He has also co-edited "Advancing Multicultural Dialogues in Education" and "Advancing Race and Ethnicity in Education" with Professor Vini Lander.

In this episode, we'll be discussing Richard's thoughts on decolonising the curriculum. We'll explore the challenges facing educators today in promoting a truly inclusive and diverse curriculum and discuss strategies for advancing multiculturalism in education. Stay tuned for an insightful conversation with Dr. Richard Race.

This episode is hosted by Adam Peter Lang, Kamille Beye, Rowena Azada-Palacios and Stella Micheong Cheong. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Google, Spotify or Amazon Music. You may also follow @c4c_ed on Twitter. We look forward to hearing your feedback and your stories.

If you would like to explore participating in our podcast, do not hesitate to reach out through the online participation form or email us at info@conversations4citizenship.com.

List of further readings

DiAngelo, R. (2021). Nice racism: How progressive White people perpetuate racial harm. Beacon Press.
Joppke, C. (2017). Is multiculturalism dead?: Crisis and persistence in the constitutional state. John Wiley & Sons.
Race, R., Gill, D., Kaitell, E., Mahmud, A., Thorpe, A., & Wolfe, K. (2022a). Proclamations and provocations: Decolonising curriculum in education research and professional practice. Equity in Education & Society, 1(1), 82-96.
Race, R., Ayling, P., Chetty, D., Hassan, N., McKinney, S., Boath, L., ... & Salehjee, S. (2022b). Decolonising curriculum in education: continuing proclamations and provocations. London Review of Education, 20(1).
Race, R. (Ed.) (2018) Advancing Multicultural Dialogues in Education, Palgrave Macmillan.
Race, R, Lander, V. (Eds.) (2016) Advancing Race and Ethnicity within Education, Houndsmills, Palgrave Macmillan.
Race, R. (2015). Multiculturalism and Education. Bloomsbury Publishing.