Episode 06 | Global Higher Education in Crisis: 3 Hosts' Perspectives from the US, UK, and Korea

Jul 11
25 min read

Updated: Aug 2

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:16] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Conversations for Citizenship podcast. Today, we're going to have a three-way discussion exploring a key theme that is coming up regularly in all our work—and I expect your work too—that being the important challenges, changes, and perhaps possible opportunities for higher education and universities in today's ever-changing world with all its geopolitical dynamics.

We are going to start by considering some of the issues that students, academics, and universities at large are facing in our three jurisdictions: South Korea, the US, and the UK. Then, we're going to expand on this to consider some wider global challenges and, again, perhaps opportunities.

This is going to be a three-way discussion between myself, Dr. Adam Peter Lang, Dr. Kamille Beye, and Dr. Stella Cheong. So, this is a bit of a different approach to a podcast than we normally do, and we do want listeners to get involved.

So firstly, could we begin with you, Kamille? Our listeners, I'm sure, would be very interested—fascinated, even—to hear firsthand some of the things that are happening in the United States at the moment regarding higher education and citizenship in what we might call this "Trumpian era." Kamille, could you enlighten us a little bit?

[01:55] Dr. Kamille Beye

Sure. Thank you, Adam. So, the US is going through a very tumultuous time right now with our politics and, of course, our higher education landscape. Earlier last week, there was a Gallup poll that stated that only 35% of Americans think that college is worth it. I don't know how many people they surveyed—I'll look that up—but it's just indicative of the times. Once before, a lot of people wanted to go to college because they thought that going to college and getting a degree was the way into the middle class. It was a way to ensure longevity in a career. We know that if you have a college degree versus a high school diploma, your income over the lifespan of employment is longer, and your income is higher. But still, people are not understanding or even seeing the benefit of a college degree here.

And then, on top of that, with the new Trump administration, there have been lots of policy changes regarding DEI—Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion—here in the United States. If you guys are familiar with what's going on with Harvard and Columbia, there have been a removal of research grants based on DEI efforts or perceived inaction regarding anti-semitic policies on university campuses.

In the case of Columbia, Columbia was the first university that the Trump administration went after, and they actually, we would say, capitulated. They were given the opportunity to fight for their Asian, Middle Eastern, African American, and Latin American departments. They agreed to have those put under oversight. They agreed to have their policies reviewed by the Trump administration, and they also agreed to have their student enrollment, as well as their lecturer base—who they hired, who they accepted, who they denied admittance to—all under the oversight of a special person designated by the Trump administration. That was seen to be a big blow to academic freedom and the ability of the university to stay independent.

Harvard has taken a different route, and they have been trying to fight the administration. Recently, they won a case to get some of their research grant money back, and they're still in the process of negotiating. So, we've had several big schools lose hundreds of millions of dollars in research grants. That is affecting whether those universities decide to continue with certain programs, enroll certain students, or even hire certain faculty, wondering if their ideology will impact future decisions against them by the administration.

This is how I perceive it. I think the issue with the removal of visas for international students, and then putting some visas back, has been a turn-off to international students. There's been some pushback because a lot of universities depend on international students for enrollment. So I think it's just become quite an interesting, and some would say toxic, environment—an environment full of uncertainty in the US space. I could go on and on, but that's just my opinion and my overview.

[06:12] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Well, no, that's a very interesting opening. Is it, therefore, in your judgment and others, much harder now as an international student to come to study in the States? And what's the impact on colleagues like yourself? Are academics thinking of leaving the States to go and work elsewhere, or is that not a possibility? What are the dynamics there at the moment? I mean, we're doing this podcast in September. I don't know whether that's a significant month for recruitment for universities in America or not; it is in the UK, but I'm not sure.

[06:50] Dr. Kamille Beye

So when you talk about recruitment, you mean for faculty?

[06:54] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Yeah, I just mean basically for people like ourselves or other people looking for jobs. You know, some universities are stopping courses, therefore making redundancies, that kind of thing.

[07:08] Dr. Kamille Beye

Okay, so in the US, schools are already in session. So our hiring process is now for next year. For the current year, they would have already hired, probably ending by the summertime, maybe June of this year, to get ready for the fall. So we're not in the hiring season for the current school year.

But as far as I know, I think that the visa situation has left a bitter taste in a lot of students' mouths. I mean, you don't want to try to come here and then be sent home, as some people were in the middle of the spring semester. Or you're not sure that because you are a foreign student, you're going to have the opportunity to work on the OPT schedule, especially if you're from certain countries. If you think about what happened, I think it was March or April, where he banned students from South Sudan, Yemen, and other countries. There was one guy who was playing for a basketball team—he was South Sudanese—and they were going for a championship run, and in the middle of this run, they found out that he might be banned. Of course, for that, it's a special case because he's high profile, so the university is talking to the administration. But for every other student—maybe not high profile, just a regular student coming to learn and experience life in the United States—to have your visas revoked, or have a level of uncertainty about whether your visa will be revoked, or if now you're caught up in an ICE raid if you don't have the proper documentation on you... I think those things are concerning to a lot of students, and if not the students, their parents who send them here.

So I think that will play a part in the next few years as to whether certain students decide to come to the United States or not.

In regards to lecturers, I'm not at a university right now, but I do know that with the removal of lots of NIH grants—NIH is the largest disseminator of research grants in the United States for universities—if you have your grants pulled, I think it's very hard for scientists to work. If you are working on something as important as a cancer project, or even working with animals... There's been this propaganda showing a shrimp running on a treadmill in 2006, and they keep talking about how it was a waste of money. TV pundits were showing that shrimp to say, "Oh, this is a waste of tax dollars." However, the end of that research is never talked about. That research showed how, through this shrimp running on this treadmill that the researcher bought for like $50, they were able to show how certain enzymes in the shrimp could help prevent food poisoning.

We as laypeople don't necessarily understand all the things that go into a research experiment, but it's how that information is conveyed to the public that decides if it's wasteful or useful. Obviously, you don't see the benefits of a scientific research project for many years. So I think people have been able to use that long delay, or maybe not even the whole truth of a research project, to say that American tax dollars are not being spent in a fruitful and productive way. Most of the research is done at the university. So I do think that on some level, university lecturers are leaving, especially those in the sciences. Others are staying because they want to fight the good fight. But also, if you've been in your career for 15, 20, 30 years, it might be very hard to transition to something outside of academia. So I do think that there is trouble here in academia, and I just don't know how far the trouble is going to go.

I was looking at just some facts about higher education in the US and where we have challenges. One of the major challenges we have is declining enrollment. Enrollment in universities has been declining since COVID. Now we have this belief in our society that education is too expensive. If people believe they can't afford it and they don't see the value in it, then it's hard to get people to invest four years of their life in pursuing something where they may or may not get a job.

And then, if you think about it, there are all these different alternatives to the university. You don't have to go to the university; you can do everything online. Or now we have a renewed investment in vocational school, because obviously, we need skills. You need to compete with AI, and you need to understand AI as well. You don't necessarily have to go to a four-year university to access that.

And then one of the big things is obviously the political changes, the policy changes. I will give an example about DEI. The Secretary of Education recently put forth something to take away funding for minority-serving institutes, saying that they are racist against white people, and white men in particular. In this environment, it's really hard to explain why these services are necessary when the national conversation is not focused on equity and is focused on something else. So I could go on and on, but those are the challenges I see.

[13:44] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Yeah. Can I just come back with a couple of questions? I suspect Stella will have some because we're going to go on and talk about Korea in a moment. But no, it's fascinating. Do you feel any concerns about speaking out, as you're obviously doing about this? And do you think others are? I just wondered, what's the pushback? We don't hear much about that outside of the States. You indicated that some academics are staying to fight the case. I just wondered what your reflections are on that.

[14:18] Dr. Kamille Beye

I do think that there's an issue with freedom of speech right now in the United States. I think that in this social media culture where people go online or work under anonymity, we don't have this idea right now that it's okay to disagree. The idea of respectful difference doesn't seem to be present in the United States at the moment.

I think that some people definitely are scared to speak out. Speaking out can bring unwelcome attention to you or your university. I think some people are definitely scared, especially even if you do have tenure—I mean, you can still be removed under certain circumstances—but it seems that there has been some freezing of academic freedoms, and I think freedom of speech is one of those. I think the conversations that people are having maybe behind closed doors or in private, that could possibly benefit the classroom, are not happening. Just watching the news and seeing how saying something that someone doesn't agree with can cost you your job... I would say yes, people are much more hesitant to speak, even in fact about an incident, or to share their opinion and say why they have that opinion. It's somewhat being curtailed, I think, at this moment in our society.

[15:52] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Well, maybe just before I pass over to Stella, that's a good opportunity to remind listeners that this forum, which reaches I think 84 different countries, is an opportunity for listeners to come back to us if there are any issues or if this resonates with things they're finding, not just in the States, but elsewhere in universities and higher education. Stella, do you have any follow-up that you want to ask Kamille at this stage?

[16:19] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Oh, sure. Thank you, Adam and Kamille. Well, the higher education system in Korea is a little bit different from the US and UK. It has some unique and deeply intrinsic challenges. The fundamental issue is our university structure. You know, over 80% of universities are private. I know that in the UK, there are no private universities, or very few. On the other hand, in Korea, over 80% of universities are private. Yet, they are not financially independent. Their main source of income, tuition fees, has been frozen by the government for the past 15 years, which is creating a serious financial crisis for many institutions, especially universities in rural areas. Universities in the Seoul metropolitan city are okay at the moment, but this is quite different from the US or UK model, where private universities often have more autonomy over tuition and large endowments.

This financial precarity exists alongside an almost unbelievable level of social pressure tied to university prestige. I know that you might have heard of Seoul National University, Yonsei University, and Korea University. Those top three universities enjoy privilege in South Korea, which means the university the students graduate from can determine their entire life trajectory—like job development, employment prospects, and even who they marry. So this creates a fierce, all-consuming competition from a very young age to get into the top three universities. We call them the SKY universities—S, K, Y. Unfortunately, only approximately 2% of the student population actually secure a place at Seoul National University, Yonsei, or Korea University. So what can the others do? This system creates an intense educational hierarchy, and it shapes our entire society. So, yeah, I would say those are some unique characteristics of the Korean university structure.

In terms of academic freedom that Kamille pointed out, I think because of the financial precarity, private universities also rely on government funding. So almost all private universities are also controlled by the government, specifically the Ministry of Education, and try to follow the rules or regulations made by the government. So it freezes academic freedom as well.

[20:55] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

One of the podcasts we did a few episodes back was with some South Korean students, wasn't it? I can't remember how long ago it was now—six months or longer? There was basically an uprising, really, in your country. That was very interesting listening to the students' perspective. Do you think there's a challenge to this thing that you've just so well explained by the younger generation? Are they pushing back against the system of higher education universities or not? Or do you think there's an acceptance of it?

[21:29] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yeah, absolutely, there is a challenge for young people. As I told you, academic credentials determine their entire life, like job hunting, the job market, or also even marriageability. So yeah, almost all young people try to get into those top three universities, but only 2% of the student population gets in. So the other 98% of the student population tries to get into other universities. There is a hierarchy of universities as well. So there is a high level of pressure—social pressure, parents' pressure, or friends' peer pressure.

[22:30] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

It sounds like, from what Kamille was saying earlier about the States, there is a discourse—not necessarily from universities—about whether university is the best thing to do, pushing back against academics in that form. That's happening in the UK at the moment in a very strong way. It doesn't sound as though that's happening so much in South Korea at the moment; there seems to be a realization of the importance of universities. Is that right, or am I making too simplistic a judgment?

[23:12] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Well, I would say, so far, students try to secure that place at the top university. And the parents also put a lot of time, energy, and money to support their children. But at the moment, because of the low fertility rate, a lot of universities—I'm not sure about Seoul National University, but Yonsei or Korea University—these private universities are also struggling to recruit brilliant students. Many students from rich families try to study abroad rather than compete in the Korean scholastic aptitude test. So, yeah, some universities in the Seoul metropolitan city are struggling to recruit students.

[24:41] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

What about staff? Is there an opportunity? Because I'm thinking if there are any opportunities in this challenge to universities, are there opportunities in countries like South Korea for academics from different parts of the world, maybe to go there and study, or to go there and even work?

[24:59] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yeah, for faculty members in the university, I think there is a lot of opportunity. When I came back home, I realized that there are a lot of funding sources. So, as I told you... yeah, that's a good point.

[25:29] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

I'll come back to a few of these points. Let me just give you a quick reflection from the UK. And this might be a bit biased, but anyway, I was looking at a newspaper the other day, The Times, and it said this: "Universities remain one of the UK's most prized assets, but too many institutions are financially unsustainable." They talk about a current crisis in higher education in the UK at the minute. While we're talking now, nearly two-fifths of universities in this country are in deficit, and they reckon that next year, it will be up to three-quarters. Just last week, Kent University, quite a prestigious university, and Greenwich University have discussed merging or amalgamating.

This is maybe where those free-market economists might say, "Well, that's a natural thing. There are too many universities." I think there are 140 in the UK, and they've got to slim down. But this is what's going on; they're not getting any support for it. Also, the number of international students is down by 15% in the UK, predicted to be down by 21% next year. And basically, those international students—and you know this, Kamille and Stella—have subsidized UK students with the fees that you've had to pay. But the fees in the UK have just gone up 250 pounds a year. Universities say it's not enough to survive because universities aren't completely state-funded. They reckon that half of the universities in the UK at the moment are reducing courses.

I know in Durham University, they've cut 200 jobs just recently. Because universities are just coming back at the beginning of September now for the academic year... Cardiff, Newcastle, Sussex—a university I know well—they've made massive redundancies and voluntary redundancies, cut loads of courses, very good courses. The University of Dundee is no longer offering contracts to postgraduate students for teaching. A representative from the lecturers talks about "academic vandalism on a grand scale."

So there is a worry, a real worry here at the moment. There are slightly small wins, in a way. This year, the number of students going from A-level study—that's when they're 18, level three courses—to universities has slightly gone up. But you know what some of the universities were doing to get those students? They were lowering the entry requirements. This is the Russell Group universities as well—Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Bristol. And the numbers have slightly gone up, but they were also offering incentives: cash handouts, free computers for people to go and study because they are so desperately worried that they're not getting the students that they need.

Just generally, in the UK, and I think elsewhere in some parts of the world, there's a declining birth rate. That's a worry for the future. Not so much this year; actually, I think the birth rate in 18-year-olds this year was slightly higher. But that's happening. A big question about globalization: Is it over in terms of not just economics, but in terms of the way universities function? But looking at the opportunities... Are there some opportunities with technology? I don't know. With AI, and we use AI on our podcast... is there something there?

And reminding ourselves what universities are for and what opportunities there are—they can be life-changing experiences. We know that personally, but also financially. This rhetoric at the moment that "oh, don't go to university because you can earn more in a lifetime without it"—well, that's not proven in the UK anyway, statistically.

So those are some of the issues. I would go as far as to say there's a crisis in the UK at the moment, and it does worry many people. But the opportunities are also, as Kamille you were saying, that with a pushback in other parts of the world, maybe—and this is already happening with some universities here, mainly in science at the moment—they're actually looking to recruit people to come here and work and study. That happened in the McCarthyite era, I believe, when people had to leave the States to come and continue their work in different parts of the world. So maybe the universities have got to wake up to this, really wake up to these challenges. There's a pushback against liberal democracy going on, and we need to recognize it. But let me come back to both of you, Kamille and Stella. What else do you want to add to that at the moment? Is there anything you could have missed out, Kamille?

[31:03] Dr. Kamille Beye

I wanted to add—sorry. When you talked about the number of foreign students who helped supplement British education, as one of those people, I was seeing an article just yesterday here in the United States about Chinese students in the US. We have a lot of international students, and I believe that Chinese students make up the biggest number of foreign students—I can check that to make sure I'm correct. However, the article I'm referencing was a CNN article, and it was talking about how Chinese students who were here in the US, their degrees are being shunned when they go back home.

Some of them... obviously, people come to the United States thinking they're going to get this great education. They know that the universities in the US have been historically known for this rigor. If you had a university education here, you can go back home and get a job with no problem. But now, because of the political tensions between my country and China, Chinese students who've been sent home—like, say, under ICE or because of this visa revocation—they're not able to get jobs back home. So then, you have your parents invest all this money in your education, sending you to the US or probably to the UK, but in the US instance, and then you're sent home early, or you're sent home with this degree, and you can't use it because people are now suspicious of you as a countermeasure because of the political situation.

So there's this article I was reading, and this student—he's Chinese, he wanted to work on Wall Street—his visa was revoked abruptly in July. He goes home, there's a rat race in China for jobs, and he's applied to lots of them, and he can't get a job. He sent over 70 applications. It's just this idea that the political situation is even impacting students, and they're nowhere near the top of this thing. They're just who they are, and they happen to be from some place that one country or another does not like. It's really interesting how students even decide their future. Like, do you really want to go abroad, and which countries are going to offer you safe haven? Because obviously, you don't know what the future political situation holds. That's really an interesting situation that's happening here right now.

There was something that I heard on NPR a couple of months ago, and they were talking to some scholars. I think one lady was from Iran, and she was studying brainwaves or something. I can't remember exactly what it was, but obviously, Iran was one of the countries targeted by the Trump administration. She was looking at her options, and she was thinking she was either going to try to go to Canada or the UK. It made me think about what you said about scientists taking haven like during the McCarthy era. I know that the EU has offered a certain pool of money to help American scientists come to Europe and continue their research. They've been building this opportunity as an asylum for scientists, and they're talking about it in terms of how the US helped German scientists during World War Two. They were going to help American scientists, hoping that this would be just a temporary safe haven so that they can come back to the US when things settle down and hopefully get their money back and continue the great work that they're doing.

[34:50] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Stella, do you want to come back on anything at the moment before we go on to some other points?

[34:56] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yes, I'd like to talk about another struggle. As I told you, the university degree in South Korean society is crucial to succeed in their entire life. But imagine only 2% of students can access the pathway to success. So it's fundamentally challenging the democratic ideal of equal opportunity in education. It creates, I would say, a rigid caste system—like a caste system in India—based on academic credentials earned at a young age. At only 22 or 23 years old, they experience the hierarchy or the inequalities of society. So it's about liberalism; it's about the very notion of social mobility. The intense focus on elite institutions is sorting and ranking individuals for the job market rather than developing engaged and critical citizens. This is a big issue in South Korea as well. Also, the citizens' perception and mindset are based on academic credentials. For instance, when you meet a man, a boyfriend or girlfriend, their parents always ask their university that they are studying at or have graduated from.

[37:01] Dr. Kamille Beye

Wait, Stella, does South Korea have a vocational track? I'm thinking, like, you know how Germany has a really good…

[37:12] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yeah, we have, at the high school level.

[37:15] Dr. Kamille Beye

Okay, so at the university level, like say after you've passed your secondary school, and you want to, I don't know, become a mechanic or run a bakery…

[37:25] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

No way. No way. Unfortunately, they can do different pathways if they want to be a chef or a chocolatier. They can choose a vocational school. We have vocational schools, but what if they cannot get into a university? Most South Korean citizens disrespect them. "Oh, they just have the skill to bake or make chocolate," but that's it. It's quite hard to get married to a professor or any scholar who graduated from Yonsei University. In reality, it's quite difficult.

[38:27] Dr. Kamille Beye

But you know, it's so interesting because I just saw something where they're talking about the number one show in South Korea is about a female chef. So everyone has to eat. Everyone appreciates good food. So obviously, there's a disconnect. I mean, like you just talked about going to these three schools, the SKY schools, right? But the idea of working to build something—entrepreneurship—I think in the US, we have a lot of small businesses, and some people go to school, some people don't. But that respect for hard work and time put in to develop something, I think that's still respected.

So I'm really interested in the fact that if you do have a vocational school model as an alternative to university, as you just said... Only 2% of the population is going to get into the SKY schools. So if you only have that small percentage, everyone's going to other places. How do people, I guess, manifest that social respect? They only have these elite schools, but then you also have the ability to create beautiful and tasty things, if you're baking or whatever that skillset is. It's still something that's respected and revered in society. So how do you see those types of professions maybe changing how society is structured in the event people don't go to school, or they definitely are not getting into SKY?

[40:00] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yeah, that's challenging. But what I told you is our academic credentials can be a caste system because those people who graduate from prestigious universities can enjoy privilege in their entire life. They can easily be lawyers; they can easily be professors. But some people don't want a life like this. They want to be a chocolatier. They want to be a chef. They can do that. They can get into a vocational school, set up their own shop or restaurant, and then they can be a billionaire or millionaire. They don't care about academic credentials. They just focus on money. Money matters, because South Korea is also a capitalistic society. Capitalism matters!

[41:09] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

Can I just come in here for a minute? Because I'm just thinking about a few other quick questions. Obviously, we've got the academic-vocational divide. It sounds very interesting in Korea. You mentioned the German model. I mean, vocational courses have always been the Cinderella to academic courses in the UK, regarding qualifications and expectations. Maybe that needs to change.

But can I just go back? One of the issues that we talked about when we first set this podcast up was the work of Michael Apple, who talks about struggles for democracy in education. You both talked about that. I just wonder whether we're in that period, and whether reaching out to our listeners... whether you want to get back to us with any not so much struggles, necessarily, but any experiences you're having out there at the moment. What we talked about—does that resonate with anything? And again, this is a very bad translation, but I think there's a Chinese phrase which goes something like, "in every crisis, there is an opportunity."

Are there opportunities for us to look in our different jurisdictions, but also generally, about what the university is for and higher education is for? What do you think about that at the moment, sort of on a general way forward? And how might we involve our listeners, do you think, a little bit more in this?

[42:37] Dr. Kamille Beye

So I think that there's always hope. I really do. I think that when we start looking at these challenges... The beauty of academia is that we look at problems to solve them, or try to find the rationale for them, and then how we can make things better. I think that even in our respective societies—there's some overlap—but I think that those who love education, those who love problem-solving... I'd like to think that there's a lot of optimism in the midst of these challenges, that we can overcome the situation, and maybe it's a teachable moment for all of us.

So how can we explain things better? Or how can we engage on a different level so that there are not these feelings of indoctrination? Or maybe it's how we interpret history so that we can look at multiple sides to see different points of view, so that more people are included. Maybe we can look at policy to see where maybe there are problems in education—how we fund it, how we structure ourselves, how we even spend those education dollars—so that maybe we can find better ways to be more financially responsible as institutions. So I do think that this is also a time for growth in the midst of the storm.

Like you said something about the UK universities merging... I think that there are over 3,000 universities in the United States, and obviously we have a bigger population. I don't know if some of the universities do plan on merging, but I think that some schools will become financially insolvent just because the numbers aren't there. And then, obviously, if you have low student enrollment, and then you don't have the research dollars, you don't have faculty... so all the things that you need to make a university run will no longer exist for certain entities. Maybe it's good in some ways because it helps you to funnel out things that cannot financially exist where they are. But then maybe it also helps to make an opportunity for you to reevaluate your courses and see what students are looking for, and even what industry is looking for, so that there's more of a match versus this mismatch in what's being taught and how students come prepared for the world of work.

I know that there's a lot of talk in academia about the intrinsic value of education. I think that we, at least in the United States, in the lower grades, there's been less emphasis put on civic education generally. And so they don't understand how that understanding continues at the university and how we can become civil adults. Obviously, everyone's not going to the university, but even as academics and people in the university, our job is to interact and be part of the communities in which we live. So if we are more open to ideas that we don't agree with on any level, and find ways to maybe inform policy differently, or look at maybe why we don't need something and why someone disagrees with us on that need... I think it's just more about being open, honestly. And I think some people are just going to be wrong, right? You're going to be just wrong. But how do you come to something where you can have a middle ground? Because I think that in the US, at least, there's been such a disconnect with our own history and the perception of it in different spaces, and how that manifests today, especially in what we call liberal teaching. I think that if we were savvy in our research and collaborations, maybe we can come to some better consensus on how we move forward. But I don't know...

[47:01] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

You do. I think you do know. You've given us quite a lot of positivism and things to look at. They're a challenge, of course, there are, but there are some really hopeful things within that. Stella, did you want to come back on anything at the moment?

[47:19] Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong

Yeah, I do agree with Kamille's thought; there is still hope. And I would say Korea, as you might guess, was a war-torn country after the Korean War, and there were no natural resources. Maybe the lack of natural resources... However, now Korea became a world top 10 industrial nation in little more than 60 years because of human resources. I believe human resources and the education system are really powerful tools to transform a war-torn country into a world top 10 industrial nation and technology powerhouse at the moment. I know many countries, like in the Global South or Southeast Asian countries, try to learn the education system, the higher education system in South Korea. So although I highlighted some challenges or struggles with the higher education or university structure in South Korea, at the same time, there is an opportunity and also positivity—there is a good point in that education system.

[49:10] Dr. Adam Peter Lang

So I was just going to say to our listeners, if you've got any ideas out there, listeners, with any interesting, relevant, contemporary research going on at the moment, or practice even, to inform us further on Conversations for Citizenship, do get in touch and let us know. We'd be delighted to hear from you and give you a showcase on our podcast. But at this stage, it's been really interesting to talk to both of you, and I'm going to draw this aspect of Conversations for Citizenship to a close. We'll come back to this again; there are lots of issues that resonate from this—school education, for example, vocational education—but let's come back to that in the future. But let's leave on a positive note. Thank you so much, everybody, and I'm going to pass over now to Kamille, who is going to close this episode. Thank you!

[50:09] Dr. Kamille Beye

Adam and Stella, thank you guys so much for this riveting conversation. It's been really interesting to hear about higher education issues in our respective countries, and obviously the hope that we all have for positive change, but also the continued academic freedom that we need to work in our various spaces. I'm closing the episode as Kamille Beye. Thank you for listening to Conversations4Citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to Conversations4Citizenship and look for us on X at @C4C_Ed. A transcript of today's conversation with Dr. Adam Lang, Dr. Stella Cheong, and Dr. Kamille Beye can be found at www.conversations4citizenship.com. This episode of Conversations4Citizenship was produced by Adam, Stella, and I, recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Many thanks. Take care. Bye.

EPISODE SUMMARY

This episode features a comparative analysis of the crises affecting higher education in the US, UK, and South Korea. Dr. Kamille Beye reports on the US 'Trumpian era,' characterized by attacks on academic freedom and declining enrollment due to rising costs. Conversely, Dr. Stella Cheong argues that South Korea’s academic credentialism—epitomised by the 'SKY' university hierarchy, an acronym for Seoul National University, Korea University, and Yonsei University, the top three prestige universities in South Korea—functions as a core social mechanism that reproduces inequality and prejudice in ways comparable to India’s caste system. Dr. Adam Lang adds that the UK sector faces "academic vandalism" with severe funding deficits and staff cuts. Ultimately, the conversation pivots to hope, emphasizing the potential for positive change amidst these structural storms.

EPISODE NOTES

In this episode, Drs. Adam Peter Lang, Kamille Beye, and Stella Micheong Cheong engage in a comprehensive three-way discussion regarding the geopolitical and structural challenges facing higher education globally. Dr. Beye begins by highlighting the "tumultuous" landscape in the US, where the Trump administration’s policies against Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) have led to the revocation of research grants and created visa uncertainties for international students. Transitioning to South Korea, Dr. Cheong explains the intense societal pressure surrounding the "SKY" universities, describing a rigid "caste system" where academic credentials determine life success while vocational paths remain deeply stigmatized. Meanwhile, Dr. Lang details the UK’s deepening financial crisis, noting that nearly 40% of universities face deficits, resulting in mergers and significant staff redundancies. Despite these struggles, the hosts conclude with optimism, viewing these crises as potential catalysts for educational reform.

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